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Ripple effects arising from larger issues - examples, explanations, theoretical or actual solutions

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SideshowBob

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Apologies if there are already any existing threads on this - mods, feel free to relocate this post if there are.

Thought it would be interesting to have a discussion about the ripple effects that occur as a result of one or more bigger problems.

Classic example: North TransPennine Express (TPE) services were yesterday (14/05/2019) disrupted by a broken down train. Long story short - this meant that the 16:50 Leeds-Manchester Airport TPE service (unit 185123 if anyone wants to know) was started from York rather than Newcastle bereft of seat reservation labels because, according to the conductor, they couldn't be (re)printed at York vice Newcastle.

The train was full and standing between Leeds and Huddersfield albeit thankfully not too badly overcrowded, so the lack of labels therefore didn't cause as many immediate problems on board as it might have done.

It did however lead me to wonder why on Earth, in this day and age (yep, I said it), we appear not to have the ability/technology to email a computer file containing the reservation label data for the train from Newcastle to York for the labels to be printed out and applied to the train there. Both LNER stations too, I might add.

I could understand it if the problem had simply been insufficient turnaround time, but that wasn't the reason given. Anyone ITK (in the know) able to shed any light on this at all?

In addition, as I said above, it would perhaps be interesting to hear of any more examples of smaller issues arising from bigger ones, there must be lots, from the points of view of both passengers and staff! :lol:

NB: I don't use the term "smaller problem" in an unempathic or derogatory sense - one person's minor issue is the next person's major headache (and missing reservation labels can cause a lot of trouble especially on busy trains)!
 
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Hadders

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It did however lead me to wonder why on Earth, in this day and age (yep, I said it), we appear not to have the ability/technology to email a computer file containing the reservation label data for the train from Newcastle to York for the labels to be printed out and applied to the train there. Both LNER stations too, I might add.

Does York station have blank TPE seat reservation labels to print onto?
Can the relevant file be exported from the seat reservation system by email?
Was there sufficient time and people at York to apply the labels?
 

alangla

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Hence why some operators (e.g. Virgin) prefer electronic labels. I realise these have their own problems but they don’t need either printers or lots of staff time to apply
 

mpthomson

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Does York station have blank TPE seat reservation labels to print onto?
Can the relevant file be exported from the seat reservation system by email?
Was there sufficient time and people at York to apply the labels?

From recollection there are very few TPE services that terminate or start from York so they may well not have that facility.
 

SideshowBob

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Does York station have blank TPE seat reservation labels to print onto?
Can the relevant file be exported from the seat reservation system by email?
Was there sufficient time and people at York to apply the labels?
1) You'd imagine so, since some TPE services start there anyway.

2) That's exactly what I'm wondering. Again, in this day and age, you'd imagine so. If not, why not?

3) Want of neither time nor people was given as the reason why reservation labels were not applied in this case. I have no reason to doubt the word of the conductor on this.
 

SideshowBob

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From recollection there are very few TPE services that terminate or start from York so they may well not have that facility.
All the London services starting from (and passing through) York use paper reservation labels, so there is clearly at least one printer there to do the job.
 

alistairlees

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1) You'd imagine so, since some TPE services start there anyway.

2) That's exactly what I'm wondering. Again, in this day and age, you'd imagine so. If not, why not?

3) Want of neither time nor people was given as the reason why reservation labels were not applied in this case. I have no reason to doubt the word of the conductor on this.
I don’t think you can export files from nrs in the way that you are imagining, which is where the problem will lie.
 

SideshowBob

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I don’t think you can export files from nrs in the way that you are imagining, which is where the problem will lie.
OK, well, if not by email, then by the same system used to send the data to Newcastle (I assume it wasn't manually typed out there).

In other news, I see the title of this thread has been changed from what it was originally. It was intended to be a discussion about the ripple effects of larger problems and the impact of them. Missing seat reservation labels was used as an example. This was made clear in the opening post.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've seen reservations placed with the wrong TOC's labels on many occasions. Needing the right ones is clearly not that important. That said, the more TOCs do electronic reservations, the fewer of any kind will be lying around.
 

SideshowBob

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I've seen reservations placed with the wrong TOC's labels on many occasions. Needing the right ones is clearly not that important. That said, the more TOCs do electronic reservations, the fewer of any kind will be lying around.
I've seen Grand Central use generic labels in the past that simply say "This seat is reserved for all or part of the journey", without specific details printed on them.
 

yorkie

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TPE trains regularly have no reservations, so they probably should abolish them. It's also happened when there is no evidence of any disruption.

The last few times I've reserved I may as well not have bothered.
 

Bletchleyite

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TPE trains regularly have no reservations, so they probably should abolish them. It's also happened when there is no evidence of any disruption.

The last few times I've reserved I may as well not have bothered.

Given that non-placed reservations cause stress even if you get a seat, perhaps it's time for another step up in the Delay Repay scheme to offer standardised compensation for the non-placing of reservations with a higher rate if you have to stand for any of the journey as a result.

That would concentrate minds.
 

SideshowBob

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TPE trains regularly have no reservations, so they probably should abolish them. It's also happened when there is no evidence of any disruption.

The last few times I've reserved I may as well not have bothered.

That, and also they seem to be having a lot of problems with the train tannoys (both manual and automated announcements), PIS (passenger information screens) and destination screens working either incorrectly or not at all - seems to be related to the installation of the new auto-announcement system as these things were rarely a problem prior to that but I don't know for sure - anyone able to confirm/deny??

Given that non-placed reservations cause stress even if you get a seat, perhaps it's time for another step up in the Delay Repay scheme to offer standardised compensation for the non-placing of reservations with a higher rate if you have to stand for any of the journey as a result.

That would concentrate minds.

It would indeed. Call me a cynic but I'd imagine most if not all TOCs making it as awkward as possible to claim that kind of compensation if only because many do so as it is! :rolleyes:

It still seems odd to me that seat reservation data apparently can't be sent electronically between stations if needs be - how does it get sent to the station where reservation labels would normally be printed, and why can't it be sent elsewhere if required? I appreciate that not every staffed station would have the necessary equipment to print the labels, but York definitely does.

Electronic reservations would be simpler - I've made on-the-day seat reservations online for Voyager trains on XC (CrossCountry) several times recently, for trains that had departed from their starting station and were therefore mid-journey. The electronic displays on those trains have been correct every single time so far, which suggests to me that electronic seat reservation data/displays can easily be updated if necessary in times of disruption.

Just to reiterate, this thread wasn't intended just to be a boring moan about missing seat reservation labels on one particular train - I'm sure there are lots of other examples of smaller problems arising as a result of bigger ones, from both a passenger and staff perspective, that passengers (if not also staff) would be forgiven for thinking would have a simple solution!
 

Statto

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I've seen reservations placed with the wrong TOC's labels on many occasions. Needing the right ones is clearly not that important. That said, the more TOCs do electronic reservations, the fewer of any kind will be lying around.

Back on Good Friday, one train i was on XC Birmingham-Nuneaton, train was the 14.52 Birmingham-Leicester stopper, all the seats had reservations on them, only when i looked closer the reservation was for a different service, the 17.22 Birmingham-Stansted, passengers were standing & could have had a seat
 

Ianno87

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Back on Good Friday, one train i was on XC Birmingham-Nuneaton, train was the 14.52 Birmingham-Leicester stopper, all the seats had reservations on them, only when i looked closer the reservation was for a different service, the 17.22 Birmingham-Stansted, passengers were standing & could have had a seat

The reservations are placed on the Leicester round trip as it's impractical/borderline chaotic to do it during its 7 minute turnround at New St before forming the Stansted.
 

DarloRich

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Classic example: North TransPennine Express (TPE) services were yesterday (14/05/2019) disrupted by a broken down train. Long story short - this meant that the 16:50 Leeds-Manchester Airport TPE service (unit 185123 if anyone wants to know) was started from York rather than Newcastle bereft of seat reservation labels because, according to the conductor, they couldn't be (re)printed at York vice Newcastle.

lets not see a conspiracy until we have eliminated all other causes! Also worrying about something as minor as this is just a waste of energy. Y9o ucant fix it and getting in a state isnt healthy. Just relax and go with the flow.

The situation could be caused by any combination of:

  • available time
  • available resource ( human, technical, physical)
  • gumption
  • access to facilities
  • requiring a third party company to allocate resource to print ( ie LNER people have to do the work in their office and were all busy)
  • system compatibility ( as in LNER system doesn't "talk" to the TPE system)
  • forgetfulness
  • breakdown in communication
  • Contractual issues (As in you can use our printer 4 times a day. Any further usesages will be charged)
  • laziness

Want of neither time nor people was given as the reason why reservation labels were not applied in this case. I have no reason to doubt the word of the conductor on this.

he is hardly going to say: Sorry about there being no reservations: Frankly, I couldn't be rsed

All the London services starting from (and passing through) York use paper reservation labels, so there is clearly at least one printer there to do the job.

Are you sure? Do the LNER overhead displays not now show reservations? I am sure they did last week when I went to Leeds.

Call me a cynic but I'd imagine most if not all TOCs making it as awkward as possible to claim that kind of compensation if only because many do so as it is!

why do posters here always see a conspiracy over everything!

It still seems odd to me that seat reservation data apparently can't be sent electronically between stations if needs be - how does it get sent to the station where reservation labels would normally be printed, and why can't it be sent elsewhere if required? I appreciate that not every staffed station would have the necessary equipment to print the labels, but York definitely does.

you are assuming one common system. I wouldn't!

The electronic displays on those trains have been correct every single time so far, which suggests to me that electronic seat reservation data/displays can easily be updated if necessary in times of disruption.

Not sure about that. Virgin often have issues with their electronic displays and "downloading the data"
 

SideshowBob

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lets not see a conspiracy until we have eliminated all other causes! Also worrying about something as minor as this is just a waste of energy. Y9o ucant fix it and getting in a state isnt healthy. Just relax and go with the flow.
I'm not "in a state". I'm mildly bemused and irritated about why it is that something as simple as this can't easily be resolved. Check your calendar to confirm the century in which we are living. Look up the date of the moon landings. Consider the point I'm making here.

It isn't minor to have a seat reserved on a train only to turn up and find said reservation not honoured, particularly if you are elderly, a person of reduced mobility, autistic or all three.

I see no reason to simply "relax and go with the flow". These things matter.

No-one said anything about a "conspiracy".

The situation could be caused by any combination of:

  • available time
  • available resource ( human, technical, physical)
  • gumption
  • access to facilities
  • requiring a third party company to allocate resource to print ( ie LNER people have to do the work in their office and were all busy)
  • system compatibility ( as in LNER system doesn't "talk" to the TPE system)
  • forgetfulness
  • breakdown in communication
  • Contractual issues (As in you can use our printer 4 times a day. Any further usesages will be charged)
  • laziness
Lack of time and "resource" not given as the reason in this case. No reason to doubt the explanation that was in fact given (again, what "conspiracy"?).

If you haven't the gumption to print out some reservation labels as a normal part of your routine, you are not suited to your job and you should be sufficiently trained to overcome the gumption deficit; otherwise redeployed or sacked for incompetence.

Third party - cry me a river. This is supposed to be National Rail - Britain's train companies working together. Don't tell me your problems; just print the labels. How hard can it be/long can it take? Remember who's ultimately paying for this nonsense.

System compatibility - both Newcastle and York are LNER stations. Both see TPE services starting at them. All TPE services use paper reservation labels. Either LNER are used to printing out TPE's labels for them, or they are used to TPE using their kit to do it for themselves, or TPE have their own kit.

Forgetfulness - possible (nobody's perfect) but I would imagine unlikely as application of paper reservation labels is routine on TPE.

Breakdown in communication - story of the railway's life! Happens too often. Causes no end of problems. As the costs of using the railway rise, the level of excuse remains more-or-less unchanged. Not good enough. Again, remember who's ultimately paying for all this and if yours is a "can't do" attitude towards things like this, then I'm not interested in paying your wages. Don't tell me I'm not contributing towards your wages. Shape up or ship out.

Contractual issues - don't tell me your problems. I don't care. Get me my seat reservation and stop whinging.

Laziness - Really? There's the door.

he is hardly going to say: Sorry about there being no reservations: Frankly, I couldn't be rsed

If that was actually the case, then that is what he should have said.

Are you sure? Do the LNER overhead displays not now show reservations? I am sure they did last week when I went to Leeds.

I suggest that the phrase you were looking for was: "Not any more - they stopped doing this a few months ago when their electronic system went live." To which I would have replied: "So they did, I'd forgotten about that, silly me." Feel free to communicate with me but if you could dial down the needless passive aggression, I'd appreciate it.

why do posters here always see a conspiracy over everything!

AFAIK, they don't. I certainly don't. I doubt most paying passengers do. I do, however, think they see cock-up instead, very frequently, and justifiably wonder why the system they put so much money into seems to utterly grind to a halt when things go wrong and instead of being up front about it and proactively and visibly make improvements, hide behind increasingly tortured excuses, "can't do" attitudes and pitiful amounts of financial compensation while telling themselves that that's enough whilst at the same time routinely criminalise innocent passengers over trivial mistakes of their own. I've tried to point out this imbalance to you before. I suspect you kmow full well that it's there but you enjoy getting a rise out of posters on this forum through arrogance and ostentation. How about changing the record, mate?

you are assuming one common system. I wouldn't!

Why not? Has the system changed much from BR days? Why would you use a different system for doing the same job just because you have reservation labels with different logos on? The labels are the same size and the information is formatted the same way. Also, there's this -
I've seen reservations placed with the wrong TOC's labels on many occasions. Needing the right ones is clearly not that important.
- which further suggests to me that the system is a common one.


Not sure about that. Virgin often have is+sues with their electronic displays and "downloading the data"

These are XC services, not Virgin, as I said -
Electronic reservations would be simpler - I've made on-the-day seat reservations online for Voyager trains on XC (CrossCountry) several times recently, for trains that had departed from their starting station and were therefore mid-journey. The electronic displays on those trains have been correct every single time so far, which suggests to me that electronic seat reservation data/displays can easily be updated if necessary in times of disruption.
- and as I also said, there has never been a problem. Perhaps try it yourself before pontificating? These are same-day advance M-tickets for single journeys between Leeds and York on Voyager trains booked using the Trainline mobile app, if you'd care to experiment.
 

DarloRich

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I'm not "in a state". I'm mildly bemused and irritated about why it is that something as simple as this can't easily be resolved. Check your calendar to confirm the century in which we are living. Look up the date of the moon landings. Consider the point I'm making here.

It isn't minor to have a seat reserved on a train only to turn up and find said reservation not honoured, particularly if you are elderly, a person of reduced mobility, autistic or all three.

I see no reason to simply "relax and go with the flow". These things matter.

No-one said anything about a "conspiracy".

What are you on about? Moon landings? The point is valid but it is a minor thing and not worth worrying about. Excreta happens. Worry about what you can control not what you cant. If you want to waste energy getting het up about this knock yourself out. Personally I don't feel the need to waste energy on frippery.

Lack of time and "resource" not given as the reason in this case. No reason to doubt the explanation that was in fact given (again, what "conspiracy"?).

If you haven't the gumption to print out some reservation labels as a normal part of your routine, you are not suited to your job and you should be sufficiently trained to overcome the gumption deficit; otherwise redeployed or sacked for incompetence.

Third party - cry me a river. This is supposed to be National Rail - Britain's train companies working together. Don't tell me your problems; just print the labels. How hard can it be/long can it take? Remember who's ultimately paying for this nonsense.

System compatibility - both Newcastle and York are LNER stations. Both see TPE services starting at them. All TPE services use paper reservation labels. Either LNER are used to printing out TPE's labels for them, or they are used to TPE using their kit to do it for themselves, or TPE have their own kit.

Forgetfulness - possible (nobody's perfect) but I would imagine unlikely as application of paper reservation labels is routine on TPE.

Breakdown in communication - story of the railway's life! Happens too often. Causes no end of problems. As the costs of using the railway rise, the level of excuse remains more-or-less unchanged. Not good enough. Again, remember who's ultimately paying for all this and if yours is a "can't do" attitude towards things like this, then I'm not interested in paying your wages. Don't tell me I'm not contributing towards your wages. Shape up or ship out.

Contractual issues - don't tell me your problems. I don't care. Get me my seat reservation and stop whinging.

Laziness - Really? There's the door.

You asked for a list of reasons why this kind of thing happens . I gave you one. I didn't grade them on likelihood or importance. It is clear you didn't actually want any reasons and have already alighted on the fact that it was lazy train staff to blame. If you don't want to listen to experience then don't ask for it. All of those reasons are problems i have come across that explain why issues happen. I didn't offer them as an excuse simply as a list of reasons. I happen to agree that it should be easy to produce the required reservation coupons at a large, staffed station!

If that was actually the case, then that is what he should have said.

I agree but no one is going to say that! If they did your post would be about how disgusting lazy over paid train staff were extracting the urine out of you. If that is what you think just say so!

I suggest that the phrase you were looking for was: "Not any more - they stopped doing this a few months ago when their electronic system went live." To which I would have replied: "So they did, I'd forgotten about that, silly me." Feel free to communicate with me but if you could dial down the needless passive aggression, I'd appreciate it.

apologies for my lack of obsequiousness. That was me being polite btw! As an aide perhaps consider your accusation of "passive aggressiveness" with your post above...........

AFAIK, they don't. I certainly don't. I doubt most paying passengers do. I do, however, think they see cock-up instead, very frequently, and justifiably wonder why the system they put so much money into seems to utterly grind to a halt when things go wrong and instead of being up front about it and proactively and visibly make improvements, hide behind increasingly tortured excuses, "can't do" attitudes and pitiful amounts of financial compensation while telling themselves that that's enough whilst at the same time routinely criminalise innocent passengers over trivial mistakes of their own. I've tried to point out this imbalance to you before. I suspect you kmow full well that it's there but you enjoy getting a rise out of posters on this forum through arrogance and ostentation. How about changing the record, mate?

A nice rant. The issue is that we have a fractured railway system that generates conflict where it shouldn't and incentivises selfishness from the companies involved. Everything is governed by a contractual relationship. That is why a lot of this happens. You seem unable to grasp this or offer any practical solutions.

Personally i am not sure what this "criminilaisation" is all about. I have never felt " criminlaised" when I travel by train. As i am sure you know ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law.

These are XC services, not Virgin, as I said -

- and as I also said, there has never been a problem. Perhaps try it yourself before pontificating? These are same-day advance M-tickets for single journeys between Leeds and York on Voyager trains booked using the Trainline mobile app, if you'd care to experiment.

What are you talking about? There has never been a problem with electronic reservation displays? Really? I assume that beyond your little journey to Leeds you haven't traveled much further. as a daily user of Virgin and a regular user of XC I am happy to state the displays do fail. It does not happen on a regular basis but it does happen often enough and when it happens on an 11 car Pendoliono out of Euston the result is chaos!
 

SideshowBob

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What are you on about? Moon landings? The point is valid but it is a minor thing and not worth worrying about. Excreta happens. Worry about what you can control not what you cant. If you want to waste energy getting het up about this knock yourself out. Personally I don't feel the need to waste energy on frippery.
Then you are selfish. Not an attractive quality. You would also have made an ideal member of the Light Brigade, seemingly willing to accept everything and question nothing. The rest of us are interested in the world around us, particularly the bits we pay handsomely for. More your loss than mine if you aren't, unless your ignorance/apathy happen to make my life harder.

You asked for a list of reasons why this kind of thing happens . I gave you one. I didn't grade them on likelihood or importance. It is clear you didn't actually want any reasons and have already alighted on the fact that it was lazy train staff to blame. If you don't want to listen to experience then don't ask for it. All of those reasons are problems i have come across that explain why issues happen. I didn't offer them as an excuse simply as a list of reasons.
For the third and final time, the only reasoning I had to go on at the time was that given by the train conductor. I have accused no-one of laziness. That was your postulation, not mine. I asked if anyone might know why the labels couldn't be printed af York rather than Newcastle as the explanation given by the guard struck me as lame, not dishonest. Try reading the original post again. It's not hard to understand. It just doesn't suit your agenda, hence your passive aggression which has now turned, as it invariably does with you, into anger. Not attractive or healthy.

I also wasn't accusing you per se of making excuses. I think the railway makes lame excuses all the time. I'm not the only one. I have no time for people like you, who think that those excuses should just be accepted without question. (I understand you don't like the thought of anyone finding you dull and uninteresting but don't worry, I'm sure if you work at it, you can at least learn to cope.)

I happen to agree that it should be easy to produce the required reservation coupons at a large, staffed station!

You've a funny way of communicating that, but I'll take your word for it!

I agree but no one is going to say that! If they did your post would be about how disgusting lazy over paid train staff were extracting the urine out of you. If that is what you think just say so!

But it isn't, or I would. I presume at least one of the reasons he didn't say that was because he isn't "disgusting lazy over paid [sic] train staff extracting the urine out of [me]". Again, this is all in your head, not mine.

apologies for my lack of obsequiousness. That was me being polite btw! As an aide perhaps consider your accusation of "passive aggressiveness" with your post above...........

You're one of those people who can give it out but not take it back. Duly noted.

A nice rant. The issue is that we have a fractured railway system that generates conflict where it shouldn't and incentivises selfishness from the companies involved. Everything is governed by a contractual relationship. That is why a lot of this happens. You seem unable to grasp this or offer any practical solutions.

I "grasp" it just fine, thank you. That doesn't mean I have to like it, nor does it mean I have no right to complain about it. If it was free at the point of use, then you'd have a stronger argument for telling me to shut up and deal with it. But it isn't. So you don't.

Personally i am not sure what this "criminilaisation" is all about. I have never felt " criminlaised" when I travel by train.

Maybe not you - neither have I - but a quick read of some of the posts in the Disputes and Prosecutions section of the forum will reveal that many do. The same applies to many TOC Twitter feeds. You can tell me you don't know what I'm talking about but I wouldn't believe you.

As i am sure you know ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law.

You can quote all railway legislation, including byelaws, chapter and verse, can you? You cannot see how railway legislation being applied to varying extents depending on the TOC/member of staff/weather would lead to confusion, no? (Not that this is in any way relevant to this thread).

What are you talking about? There has never been a problem with electronic reservation displays? Really?

Not in my experience of reserving a seat on a CrossCountry Voyager train in the way so described, no. Believe that or not; I don't care.

I assume that beyond your little journey to Leeds you haven't traveled much further.

You'd be foolish to assume that.

as a daily user of Virgin and a regular user of XC I am happy to state the displays do fail. It does not happen on a regular basis but it does happen often enough and when it happens on an 11 car Pendoliono out of Euston the result is chaos!

So is that chaos worth complaining about, or is it just "frippery"?
 

DarloRich

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Then you are selfish. Not an attractive quality. You would also have made an ideal member of the Light Brigade, seemingly willing to accept everything and question nothing. The rest of us are interested in the world around us, particularly the bits we pay handsomely for. More your loss than mine if you aren't, unless your ignorance/apathy happen to make my life harder.

eh? I am sorry but I have no idea what you are on about.

For the third and final time, the only reasoning I had to go on at the time was that given by the train conductor. I have accused no-one of laziness. That was your postulation, not mine. I asked if anyone might know why the labels couldn't be printed af York rather than Newcastle as the explanation given by the guard struck me as lame, not dishonest. Try reading the original post again. It's not hard to understand. It just doesn't suit your agenda, hence your passive aggression which has now turned, as it invariably does with you, into anger. Not attractive or healthy.

I also wasn't accusing you per se of making excuses. I think the railway makes lame excuses all the time. I'm not the only one. I have no time for people like you, who think that those excuses should just be accepted without question. (I understand you don't like the thought of anyone finding you dull and uninteresting but don't worry, I'm sure if you work at it, you can at least learn to cope.)

Where have I said that "lame excuses" should be accepted? Could you show me? You asked for reasons but then decided they were "lame excuses" because they didn't support your view. I further notice that anyone who doesn't agree with your stance is "dull" or holds views that views are not worthy of your time. Also in disagreeing with you I am "passively aggressive" and now "angry". I simply tried to answer your question with some reasons based on my experience. I am sorry you don't like those reasons or consider them worthy of attention. It is clear you don't like anyone disagreeing with your viewpoint and then resort to silly personal name calling in an attempt to score points. Most posters are better than this.

You're one of those people who can give it out but not take it back. Duly noted.

eh? It isnt me complaining about the nasty, passively aggressive & angry internet man.

I "grasp" it just fine, thank you. That doesn't mean I have to like it, nor does it mean I have no right to complain about it. If it was free at the point of use, then you'd have a stronger argument for telling me to shut up and deal with it. But it isn't. So you don't.

Did I say I liked it? You asked why these situations happen. I set out why. They weren't suggested as a justification or as a validation. As I said, I think that printing out some reservation labels and getting them on the train should be a fairly straightforward process especially at a large staffed station! The cost of the ticket plays no part of my view on this.

Maybe not you - neither have I - but a quick read of some of the posts in the Disputes and Prosecutions section of the forum will reveal that many do. The same applies to many TOC Twitter feeds. You can tell me you don't know what I'm talking about but I wouldn't believe you.

You can quote all railway legislation, including byelaws, chapter and verse, can you? You cannot see how railway legislation being applied to varying extents depending on the TOC/member of staff/weather would lead to confusion, no? (Not that this is in any way relevant to this thread).

Not at all. I couldn't tell you much about byelaws. However if I was in the wrong and broke the law I would expect to be punished and would not expect to use ignorance as a defence. If I buy a ticket that says I must travel on the 10:00 train only why would I expect to be able to rock up at 11:00 and travel on that train? You cant buy a ticket for a matinee performance and expect to attend the evening show after all!

BTW many of the dispute threads are about people trying to be clever, failing to buy a ticket, telling lies or being caught out in those lies or scams. Some are hardship stories that should be dealt with better. Many are open and shut cases of dishonesty. Your view seems to be that rules don't matter and because you pay what you consider to be a great deal of money to travel you should be allowed to do as you please. Perhaps that is the selfish stance you accuse others of.

Not in my experience of reserving a seat on a CrossCountry Voyager train in the way so described, no. Believe that or not; I don't care.

OK - I accept that you haven't seen any system failures on Cross Country. Will you accept that I have and that the system is not infallible?

So is that chaos worth complaining about, or is it just "frippery"?

It is worth complaining about. Getting all angry and ranty about it is a waste of energy. Ranting on wont fix the problem. Personally I would complain in a mature and sensible fashion then go home and get on with better things in my life.
 

SideshowBob

Member
Joined
21 Jun 2018
Messages
179
eh? I am sorry but I have no idea what you are on about.

Also worrying about something as minor as this is just a waste of energy.

Personally I don't feel the need to waste energy on frippery.

This situation isn't "minor" to, or thought of as "frippery" by everyone (e.g. elderly, physically disabled or autistic people). If you choose not to care about people like that, that is your choice, but it makes you a selfish person.


Where have I said that "lame excuses" should be accepted? Could you show me?

I didn't say you had said that. Indeed, the part of my post that you quoted there says quite clearly that I wasn't accusing you of making any excuses, lame or otherwise. Try reading it again?

You asked for reasons but then decided they were "lame excuses" because they didn't support your view. I further notice that anyone who doesn't agree with your stance is "dull" or holds views that views are not worthy of your time. Also in disagreeing with you I am "passively aggressive" and now "angry". I simply tried to answer your question with some reasons based on my experience. I am sorry you don't like those reasons or consider them worthy of attention. It is clear you don't like anyone disagreeing with your viewpoint and then resort to silly personal name calling in an attempt to score points. Most posters are better than this.

I fully expect this to be the most ridiculous thing I read today.

eh? It isnt me complaining about the nasty, passively aggressive & angry internet man.

Wow. That really got to you, didn't it? Some people really don't like getting back what they give out! :lol:

Did I say I liked it?

No. Did I say you did? No. All I said was that I didn't have to like it myself. Try reading it again?

You asked why these situations happen. I set out why. They weren't suggested as a justification or as a validation.

You speculated possible reasons why it might be. I dismissed your suggestions. I might have been slightly kinder about it but I didn't feel your tone warranted or deserved that. Fairly or unfairly, that is my view. Either accept that that is my view and have a reasonable discussion about it, or spout bizarre, childish nonsense about "disgusting lazy train staff"...(your words, not mine). The choice is yours. The choice you make will presumably depend on how seriously you want your views to be taken. Based purely in much of your posting history on here, I find it difficult to imagine a situation in which more than a handful of reasonably intelligent people could hope to take you seriously. I don't give a monkey's what you think of me but feel free to waste your time telling me. I have better things to do than read it.

As I said, I think that printing out some reservation labels and getting them on the train should be a fairly straightforward process especially at a large staffed station! The cost of the ticket plays no part of my view on this.

In which case, why the ad hominem?

Not at all. I couldn't tell you much about byelaws. However if I was in the wrong and broke the law I would expect to be punished and would not expect to use ignorance as a defence. If I buy a ticket that says I must travel on the 10:00 train only why would I expect to be able to rock up at 11:00 and travel on that train? You cant buy a ticket for a matinee performance and expect to attend the evening show after all!

True, but as I suspect you know very well, that is not the kind of thing I had in mind.

BTW many of the dispute threads are about people trying to be clever, failing to buy a ticket, telling lies or being caught out in those lies or scams. Some are hardship stories that should be dealt with better. Many are open and shut cases of dishonesty.

Why so cynical? What happened? It seems a pity but again, your choice.

Your view seems to be that rules don't matter and because you pay what you consider to be a great deal of money to travel you should be allowed to do as you please. Perhaps that is the selfish stance you accuse others of.

Not in the least. Where have I said that? Could you show me?

No, you cannot, for I have said nothing of the kind. I merely expect a company with which I form a contract in exchange for my money to keep to its end of the deal. Is that so wrong?

OK - I accept that you haven't seen any system failures on Cross Country. Will you accept that I have and that the system is not infallible?

Happily. And I am also happy to have a discussion with you as long as you maintain a reasonable tone, as you have in this particular instance as quoted. If you speak to me reasonably, I will respond reasonably. If you try to pick a fight for no obvious reason, I will treat you with the contempt you deserve.

It is worth complaining about. Getting all angry and ranty about it is a waste of energy. Ranting on wont fix the problem.

I am not angry, just bemused and mildly irritated, as I have already said. The only anger I have seen displayed so far during the course of this discussion has come from you, and no-one else.

Personally I would complain in a mature and sensible fashion then go home and get on with better things in my life.

The hypocrisy you display here is breathtaking. I refer you again to that bizarre passage about the "nasty lazy train staff". An interesting definition of talking in a "mature and sensible fashion" of which I was not previously aware.

My position is clear and unequivocal. However, one last time, I will explain it again:

· Train which would normally have seat reservations indicated with printed slips inserted in slots at the top of the seat frame arrives at station without said slips in place.

· Guard gives reason for this as being that the train had been started from a location it would not normally be started from. This is despite both the usual starting station and the unusual one having the facilities to provide these slips, and the fact that the TOC providing the service operate trains which start from the unusual station - it's just that this particular train normally starts its journey from a station other than the one at which it started its journey on this particular day, hence my use of the word "unusual" to describe said station.

· In the absence of further explanation/information, it occurred to me to wonder why this might be. In terms of a solution to the problem, I wondered why it apparently isn't possible to send, by means of electronic transmission, a computer file containing the reservation data for the train to the station from which it began its journey so that the slips could be printed and applied to the train there.

· I furthermore wondered what other apparently smaller problems (accepting the notion that such problems won't appear small to everyone, for very good reasons) might arise as a result of bigger ones (in this case, a broken down train blocking a line) and what could be done to mitigate or prevent them.

· At no time have I made any derogatory remarks about railway staff (you are the only respondent so far to imply/suggest otherwise which itself, surprisingly, appears not to tell you anything about your own attitude or perceptions).

I trust everything is now clear to you. If you wish to contribute further to this discussion in a measured, polite and reasonable tone, I am happy to respond in the same way. If on the other hand you continue with the belligerent, confrontational and insulting tone you have displayed towards me so far, I will not respond to you any further.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
Happily. And I am also happy to have a discussion with you as long as you maintain a reasonable tone, as you have in this particular instance as quoted. If you speak to me reasonably, I will respond reasonably. If you try to pick a fight for no obvious reason, I will treat you with the contempt you deserve.

I have simply expressed a view then defended that in the face of what I consider silliness. This may not be your intention but it is my perception. I believe that throughout I have remained reasonable and within the rules of the forum. I don't believe I have used a "tone" or picked a fight. I am sorry if that is your view. It is not my intention but I accept that may be your perception.

· In the absence of further explanation/information, it occurred to me to wonder why this might be. In terms of a solution to the problem, I wondered why it apparently isn't possible to send, by means of electronic transmission, a computer file containing the reservation data for the train to the station from which it began its journey so that the slips could be printed and applied to the train there.

And that is exactly what I provided to you. You immediately sought to dismiss them without, in my view adequate consideration. I do not say these reasons are acceptable. I do say they are symptom of a fractured, competitive and poorly incentivised structure that does not, always, focus on passenger needs. Hopefully that will start to change as we move to a more "alliance" based structure but that will take time. This kind of activity should just happen regardless of the colour of train you work on. It shouldn't take a long conversation or a large number of conversations to sort this type of issue out.

It is a nice day out. Lets agree to move on.
 

SideshowBob

Member
Joined
21 Jun 2018
Messages
179
I have simply expressed a view then defended that in the face of what I consider silliness. This may not be your intention but it is my perception. I believe that throughout I have remained reasonable and within the rules of the forum. I don't believe I have used a "tone" or picked a fight. I am sorry if that is your view. It is not my intention but I accept that may be your perception.

Fair enough. I apologise if I misunderstood or misinterpreted you.

And that is exactly what I provided to you. You immediately sought to dismiss them without, in my view adequate consideration.

OK, I take your point.

I do not say these reasons are acceptable. I do say they are symptom of a fractured, competitive and poorly incentivised structure that does not, always, focus on passenger needs. Hopefully that will start to change as we move to a more "alliance" based structure but that will take time. This kind of activity should just happen regardless of the colour of train you work on. It shouldn't take a long conversation or a large number of conversations to sort this type of issue out.

Agreed.

It is a nice day out. Lets agree to move on.

Good idea.
 
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