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Risk Analysis Query - overcrowded train vs. defective coach

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cb a1

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My usual 3 coach class 170 train to work this morning was defective - neither set of main doors in Coach A were working so the connecting door was locked to put the coach out of use. I had been sat in Coach A, but was asked to leave for the ubiquitous 'it's for your safety' reason.

Thus, the train ran with just two available coaches.

Due to the derailment just north of Dundee, there were a lot fewer passengers than normal, so from Stirling to Queen Street, it was only about 110% full. If the train had run from Aberdeen it would have been running the last section at about 150% seating capacity [the train is normally full with a few people standing].

I can see that there would obviously be risks to allowing passengers to use Coach A where the only normal exit would be through the connecting doors back into Coach B. I also can see that whilst running a train at over 100% seated capacity will carry more risk than one at less than 100% seated capacity.

The latter is clearly a well understood risk and many trains run at such crowding levels [I as well aware of how lucky I am that my usual trains are rarely so crowded]. The former is, I would guess, a less well understood risk.

To be clear, I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with the risk assessment done here [with my very limited knowledge, I would have very probably made the same choice]. Nonetheless, I do wonder if it was the best choice?
 
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LowLevel

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You can choose to get off a busy train and wait (you're not a sheep) - you may be inconvenienced but you will be unharmed - there's no gun to your head making you board. If however we lock you in a carriage with doors that don't work and it crashes or catches fire, you may well be killed if you can't escape (especially with the advent of laminated windows designed not to break).
 

Simon11

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An overcrowded train is only very, very lightly more riskier than having a train at 100% seated capacity.
 

tsr

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If the doors are not working there may also be a problem with emergency egress equipment (entirely possible on Turbostar stock) and this may mean passengers would not be able to leave the train in an emergency. There would of course also be issues with dwell times at stations as people walked through the train, and making sure nobody was confused by what would be an unusual situation.

In addition, any coach with both defective doors on one side has to be cleared of passengers and locked out of use, as there would be insufficient exits available if the train overturned, or should the driver need a secondary escape route from the vehicle.
 

Greenback

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While an individual passenger may well choose to take the risk of travelling a coach with defective doors, should an incident occur, unlikely though it is statistically, the passenger (or more likely their family) will undoubtedly blame the TOC and seek to extract large amounts of compensation.

Therefore, I think it's quite understandable that a TOC chooses not to allow something to happen that will have a good chance of seeing them taking the blame in a court of law.
 

notadriver

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Is there not something in the railway bylaws or NRCOC whereby passengers must obey on train staff and vacate certain areas if asked to do so?
 

FordFocus

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The rule book states if the end passenger set of doors behind the drivers cab, in this case Door A or D are not working correctly it must be locked out of use and the coach locked out of use for passengers as well.

On Turbostars I understand that the egress will not work if the door is manually locked out of use. I'll ask or try if I remember and get the opportunity.

IMHO passengers should not get the opportunity to choose whether to sit in a defective coach* this is for the decision to be made by traincrew and control. In an emergency situation defective doors can hinder escape. People running far away from fire only to find the last set of available doors are locked is a reason for this rule. If something did happen then the TOC no doubt would be sued.

*Excluding carriages with only emergency lightening, defective HVAC
 

Lincoln

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Depending on which doors are defective the rule book details what must be done by staff:

RSSB Rule Book Module TW5 said:
6.1 Vehicles which must be locked out of use

You must place the vehicle out of public use and arrange to transfer passengers to another vehicle, if:

  • all doors normally used by the public are defective on one or both sides of the vehicle (including doors used in an emergency)
  • a door at the leading end of the first passenger-carrying vehicle is defective
  • a trailing-end door of the last passenger-carrying vehicle is defective.
This also applies to vehicles either side of a coupling where there is no gangway connection available to passengers.

Link to rule book: http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERM8000-trainoperationsstaff%20Iss%201.pdf

Due to this there isn't any room to carry out an overcrowding risk assessment as the appropriate carriage must be evacuated.

You can bet that the company would hopefully get it seen to as soon as possible though; as any delay minutes would be attributable to them for excess time taken for passengers to board/alight whilst an effectively short formed train is running around.
 

Carntyne

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Busy trains aren't 'dangerous' to be fair. Always hear thing like 'crammed on'. Who crammed who onto the unit?
 

Starmill

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The only serious risk for people being on busy trains that really don't want to be (e.g. people who suffer from serious cases of claustrophobia) is if they are onboard a quiet train which subsequently becomes very busy.

In this case it's difficult for them to make the call - they might not realise how busy it will be until it's too late for them to get near the doors.

Are there any of those ScotRail trains from Aberdeen that aren't running at capacity or greater? They always seem so full!
 

tsr

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Is there not something in the railway bylaws or NRCOC whereby passengers must obey on train staff and vacate certain areas if asked to do so?

Correct!

On Turbostars I understand that the egress will not work if the door is manually locked out of use. I'll ask or try if I remember and get the opportunity.

Also correct! Or at least on the ones I have anything to do with. Except for the external door handle lock on the cab doors - not relevant in this case.
 

cb a1

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Depending on which doors are defective the rule book details what must be done by staff:

Link to rule book: http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERM8000-trainoperationsstaff%20Iss%201.pdf

Due to this there isn't any room to carry out an overcrowding risk assessment as the appropriate carriage must be evacuated.
Fair enough, staff do not need to do a risk assessment as rules are rules and must always be obeyed.

As someone who (as part of the team) writes the rule book for my industry, I am always reviewing whether the rules are still correct and relevant. I am frequently challenged to explain why a rule is what it is and whether an alternative option would be a better choice.

Thus, my original question could be rephrased as whether the rule as is, is the best option? Many thanks to those of you who have responded with relevant evidence on why it is the best option. The point (by starmill) about people going in there when quiet, not anticipating what it would be like when busy was something that I'd not thought of.
 

Lincoln

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Thus, my original question could be rephrased as whether the rule as is, is the best option? Many thanks to those of you who have responded with relevant evidence on why it is the best option. The point (by starmill) about people going in there when quiet, not anticipating what it would be like when busy was something that I'd not thought of.

I completely agree that rules should be reviewed on a regular basis.

However these are rail industry wide rules to ensure all train companies follow the same procedures.

The issue with carriage doors is when they are locked out of use, due to say a defect, then they really are locked. This is the case for most train types (especially 14x and 15x - I can't speak for other classes) and can't be opened by the emergency means. Perhaps some more modern trains now allow egress in an emergency through a locked door, but until all of the industries rolling stock has the same capability then I imagine this particular rule will stick.
 

ComUtoR

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I completely agree that rules should be reviewed on a regular basis.

However these are rail industry wide rules to ensure all train companies follow the same procedures.

The rule book is constantly being reviewed. The door regulations have changed since I first started and are now more relevant to modern traction.
 

scotraildriver

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Was this 170405 by chance? If so then it wasn't defective doors as such but an engine fault which resulted in flat batteries meaning no power to the doors, but also no lighting whatsoever or HVAC hence the coach was locked. This is a poor design on the original turbostar in that if an engine stops then you get about 1 hour of battery power then everything dies. The later units "cross feed" power to a faulty vehicle from the next one.
 

prod_pep

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Do all trains actually have locks fitted to their internal carriage doors to prevent people entering? I've seen examples of Class 313, 314 and 315 with both door sets out of use in a single carriage before and never noticed anyone in the carriage. That being said, looking at their internal doors it doesn't look like they have a lock fitted, only handles.
 

Carntyne

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Not all will have physical locks, but most will be able to be switched/locked out of use.
 

40129

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I once had a passenger faint on board a very busy Turbostar with a set of doors locked out of use. Unfortunately. they were right next to the locked doors which were on the platform side. As neither the external or internal egress handles would work getting them off was not easy to say the least
 
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