RMT announcement regarding sewage on tracks

[Energy]

All this is is the RMT trying to get attention to make it look like they are doing something, they rely on the money coming from workers and they don't want that to go. The announcement is very one sided and lots of the operators have very little non-compliant stock (like GWR which only have a few pacers) and all of them have a plan to replace the stock. The RMT is also not being particularly useful and just blaming the operators and government instead of say working with operators on a suitable way to train drivers on the new rolling stock.

 

[causton]

How many points is some trains drop human waste on the track but they will be gone soon, if later than mandated, going to score?

Nobody is forcing the RMT to write this... er... should I say, human waste.

Guaranteed this article will do little to improve the current situation beyond the measures already in place!

And if it's "ok" for them to spread lies just to get one up on the Government, then...

 

[43096]

Nobody is forcing the RMT to write this... er... should I say, human waste.

Guaranteed this article will do little to improve the current situation beyond the measures already in place!

And if it's "ok" for them to spread lies just to get one up on the Government, then...

That’s the problem: it’s become OK to publish lies as the truth. See the current incumbent of the White House as exhibit A.

Shouldn’t be surprised by the RMT: but I’m not holding my breath on journalists doing any fact checking before printing it.

 

[py_megapixel]

That’s the problem: it’s become OK to publish lies as the truth. See the current incumbent of the White House as exhibit A.

Shouldn’t be surprised by the RMT: but I’m not holding my breath on journalists doing any fact checking before printing it.

And that's exactly the problem. A couple of posters on here, and also a couple of others I've met elsewhere, were arguing that it doesn't matter if a press release is utter c**p because it's not meant to be consumed by the general public. But many news outlets are simply republishing press releases, and many others are taking parts of them without fact-checking.

 

[BrianW]

New trains take a while to get made, the modifications have also taken longer than expected for some trains, such as the creation of 230s and 769s and the HST conversions.

While agree with you in principle, it's not that simple in practice.

If a car fails its MoT it HAS to be fixed OR not driven, ever, again, unless and until it is.
I'm not allowed to pollute or endanger others, so how come it's ok to sh*t on people working so we can travel?
This is not ok.
These 'excuses' sound like 'I didn't mean to ..!! I was going to get round to it ...
Hardly professional or caring.

How long have 'they' had?

 

[DB]

How long have 'they' had?

I think you've missed the points made by various people about some of them not actually having had very long at all as the franchises are fairly recent (the government could have dealt with it, but didn't).

And we are back to the question of alternatives. Do you think it would be preferable to cancel a load of services for quite a while? I'm sure that would do wonders for encouraging people back to the railways!

 

[py_megapixel]

If a car fails its MoT it HAS to be fixed OR not driven, ever, again, unless and until it is.
I'm not allowed to pollute or endanger others, so how come it's ok to sh*t on people working so we can travel?

That's an excellent point which you make, but what's the alternative? No train service?
Our (pre-Covid) economy would completely collapse if every single unit from the 1990s or earlier had been taken out of service immediately as soon as it became appararent that CET retrofitment would be needed.
Plus, the capacity does not exist to modify hundreds if not thousands of carriages all at once.

Also, your MOT analogy isn't really valid because people are still allowed to drive cars which are several decades old and don't come up to modern emissions standards.

How long have 'they' had?

Who's they?

Franchisees: almost no time at all.
DfT: decades, but they have screwed up the franchise conditions meaning that nothing has really happened until fairly recently.

 

[45107]

Going away from the actual article for a moment...
This situation is, more than anything, the fault of the franchising system, and how badly the DfT have handled it.

Say the deadline for a particular modification (as it was) was 31st December 2019, and a TOC's franchise ends in June 2019. What incentive do they have to pay for the units to have that modification when, for all they know, they'll be long gone by the time it becomes required? This then leaves their successor with less than a year to get a whole fleet up to scratch.

I think that the ROSCOs were/are responsible for the modifications. However the same principle applies in that they would not/were reluctant to do the mods as there was no guarantee that the new franchise holder would use the same stock.

 

[mcmad]

I think you've missed the points made by various people about some of them not actually having had very long at all as the franchises are fairly recent (the government could have dealt with it, but didn't).

And we are back to the question of alternatives. Do you think it would be preferable to cancel a load of services for quite a while? I'm sure that would do wonders for encouraging people back to the railways!

The rail industry has had years, the TOCs knew the deadline was coming up but ignored it. The ROSCOs who own the stock are the same. The DFT could have realised that nothing was moving and acted but didn’t.

I tell you what, I’ll come round your place of work and spray crap around it and you but it’s ok because it’s been outlawed and I’m working on a plan to stop doing it it’s just taking a while because I didn’t do any planning in time but it’s not my fault it’s all someone elses

 

[DarloRich]

The Government also doesn't know what it is talking about if the press release is to be believed. It was based on parliamentary answers. Perhaps they should fact check before answering!

another poster who thinks differing viewpoint = must not understand life. You must be fun at parties.

Lets try not to be silly eh? There aren't any parties right now...............................

I'm pretty sure that's already been done enough - TOCs have ordered new stock and planned refurbishment/withdrawal for non compliant stock. Dumping raw sewage on the tracks is going away soon my point is that the RMT are trying to make a big deal out of this when there is now very few stock non compliant. The exaggeration in the statement doesn't help them either in my opinion.

Not soon enough for the people getting spattered on a regular basis. Deadlines have been constantly missed and there is little trust that they will be met any time soon.

You seem to be missing the point that in a lot of these cases it's down to the DfT's cock-ups over franchising - i.e. the change of franchise was too close to the deadline for it to be possible by then, and they did nothing to come to an agreement with the previous operator to modify existing stock or order new. How do you expect new franchisees such as EMR to deal with this? Cancel a load of services? RMT wouldn't like that either.

But of course, no blame can be placed at the door of the DfT because the RMT has a very simplistic view that everything 'private' is bad whereas everything 'public' is good, whereas in reality it's nowhere near that well-defined.

And for those who have been franchise holders long enough to have been able to do it, the delays are in most cases not their fault, but in any case how do you think fining them would help? They are currently under management contracts, so the government would be fining itself, and even under normal circumstances some of them (e.g. Northern) make a net loss so receive a subsidy, so similar would apply - and Northern is also now run by the DfT (indirectly), so another reason why it would be fining itself.

The fault lies somewhere between the Government, the TOC's and the ROSCO. All are culpable in different ways and in different degrees. I would be making them pay. You seem happy to shrug and let it carry on. What happens when the next deadline is missed? Or the one after? Or the one after that. When do you say enough? Do you just let it slide?

As for the accusation that I think it is acceptable to dump it on the track, I don't as I have said several times, but you seem determined to ignore this. Unfortunately you do seem to be one of those millitant types keen to shout 'something must be done' without actually having any ideas about what. Fining companies would not stop it - the only options are either a) accept that it's bad but that it will continue for a little longer or b) cancel a load of services. Nobody seems to be able to suggest any other option.

But by your own words ( option a) you are happy that this should continue. You therefore seem happy to accept some people getting hit with pooh while at work because, despite long standing deadlines, private companies and government couldn't be bothered to get their finger out and sort this out. I am not. It makes me quite angry. If that makes me militant then so be it. I am fairly militant on this topic anyway because a) it is disgusting and b) I don't want hitting in the face with pooh. ( It is really, really, horrible. I don't think i appreciated just how bad it was until it happened to me. yuk.)

I would like to think that some form of mitigation, short of cancelling all services, could be considered especially at times of very light loading. if, as you say, it is acceptable to continue discharging for a period of time I would want to see each TOC, ROSCO and supplier define a proper plan for rapid rectification and be held to a firm date when they stop discharging with clear penalties for failure. I am happy to be flexible with the supply market but clear dates are needed along with an understanding that an important and long known deadline has been missed coupled with some form of contrition for poor past performance.

(it is also not just track workers - it is maintenance workers in depots who have to clean this stuff off. imagine having to go under one of these trains and fix something. Urgh. I am sure if it was the directors getting coated in ordure on a regular basis this would have stopped long ago!)

Because the unions are the ones screaming about having multiple people in the cab which prevents training on the replacements.

Well that is blooming silly!

I apologise if sensible discussion bores you.

It doesn't bore me at all. Many posters here have complained about accuracy then launched into tired cliches about unions of a type the most rabidly right wing press would be happy with.

That’s the problem: it’s become OK to publish lies as the truth. See the current incumbent of the White House as exhibit A.

Shouldn’t be surprised by the RMT: but I’m not holding my breath on journalists doing any fact checking before printing it.

Exhibit b would be Mr Johnson and his gang. He is just as bad!

This press release will go in local papers in the areas served by the TOC's listed. Most of those papers are run out of massive publishing houses with very limited staff. They don't employ fact checkers. They will just lift this straight into the paper/ on line. That is what local journalism is now.

And that's exactly the problem. A couple of posters on here, and also a couple of others I've met elsewhere, were arguing that it doesn't matter if a press release is utter c**p because it's not meant to be consumed by the general public. But many news outlets are simply republishing press releases, and many others are taking parts of them without fact-checking.

I would love to live in a world where the man on the white horse rides into town and saves the day. In my world he gets shot in the back. I admire the fact you are able to retain such worthy principles. I had them when I was a kid but I have dealt with too many awful people for too long and had too many kicks in the unmentionables to be anything other than cynical and I find it hard to understand how people don't see the world the same as me. Hopefully you avoid those issues!

I would love it if the way to beat idiots like Trump and Johnson was with accuracy and truth but it isn't. It is with fire. This sums up my view:

Eliot Ness: I want to get Capone! I don't know how to do it.
- Jim Malone: You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way! And that's how you get Capone.”


All OT of course!

 

[DB]

The rail industry has had years, the TOCs knew the deadline was coming up but ignored it. The ROSCOs who own the stock are the same. The DFT could have realised that nothing was moving and acted but didn’t.

Many of the TOCs had franchises ending before the deadline, so they wouldn't do it unless the DfT paid them. The ROSCOs aren't going to spend a fortune unless they will make it back, so the DfT would have needed to guarantee a sensible minimum lease period. It's basically the fault of the DfT - they are the only ones who could have arranged this.

I tell you what, I’ll come round your place of work and spray crap around it and you but it’s ok because it’s been outlawed and I’m working on a plan to stop doing it it’s just taking a while because I didn’t do any planning in time but it’s not my fault it’s all someone elses

This is getting really tedious. You objectors have been asked repeatedly what alternative you suggest, but never seem to come up with anything, but I'll ask again. What do you think should be done now? Because shouting about it won't make the issue go away.

 

[DB]

The fault lies somewhere between the Government, the TOC's and the ROSCO. All are culpable in different ways and in different degrees. I would be making them pay. You seem happy to shrug and let it carry on. What happens when the next deadline is missed? Or the one after? Or the one after that. When do you say enough? Do you just let it slide?

But the government fining itself isn't going to resolve the issue, is it?

I would like to think that some form of mitigation, short of cancelling all services, could be considered especially at times of very light loading.

That's been happening anyway recently, to an extent - Northern have reduced Pacer use while the timetable was reduced. There are six TOCs still affected, I believe, and all of them are either sending units through refurbishment at the moment, or have new fleets on order.

 

[DarloRich]

But the government fining itself isn't going to resolve the issue, is it?

What would you do then? Let them get away with it? What happens when they miss deadlines you really care about? There has to be some form of regulatory response and some firm action taken to rectify the situation.

That's been happening anyway recently, to an extent - Northern have reduced Pacer use while the timetable was reduced. There are six TOCs still affected, I believe, and all of them are either sending units through refurbishment at the moment, or have new fleets on order.

There also needs to be more pressure to ensure none compliant units work with compliant ones as far as possible. Each TOC needs to be told to produce, ASAP, a clear rectification and mitigation plan. Could you say that so far as is reasonably practicable this risk has been mitigated? I am not so sure. We are already beyond the deadline. Someone needs to make a firm commitment about ending this situation.

 

[43096]

Well that is blooming silly!

Wonderful. You’re quite happy to jump up and down berating people, but can’t/won’t understand the fact that RMT are one of the blockers to resolution of the problem.

 

[DB]

What would you do then? Let them get away with it? What happens when they miss deadlines you really care about? There has to be some form of regulatory response and some firm action taken to rectify the situation.

I agree that there needs to be a clear plan, but it is all in the pipeline anyway so I'm not sure what further regulatory response is actually going to do.

 

[Speed43125]

Anyone know about old charter stock?

In short, it doesn't need to apply to any PRM regulations so there is no incentive to fit it. Aside from LSL's ex GA. Mk.3a fleet, everything still dumps onto the track.

 

[DB]

In short, it doesn't need to apply to any PRM regulations so there is no incentive to fit it. Aside from LSL's ex GA. Mk.3a fleet, everything still dumps onto the track.

This isn't a PRM regulation though - it's a Network Rail one, which happened to have the same deadline.

 

[DarloRich]

Wonderful. You’re quite happy to jump up and down berating people, but can’t/won’t understand the fact that RMT are one of the blockers to resolution of the problem.

Wonderful. You seem happy to give the Government and private companies a free pass yet want to blame the union. Why is that? Did the union stop the government, the ROSCO and the TOCs from sorting this out several years ago?

I am happy to berate anyone. No favorites. If the union are causing issues here they want to stop it and grow a brain.

 

[DB]

Wonderful. You seem happy to give the Government and private companies a free pass yet want to blame the union. Why is that? Did the union stop the government, the ROSCO and the TOCs from sorting this out several years ago?

I am happy to berate anyone. No favorites. If the union are causing issues here they want to stop it and grow a brain.

If the union had stated the true situation I don't think anyone would have objected - but they exaggerated it.

 

[DarloRich]

If the union had stated the true situation I don't think anyone would have objected - but they exaggerated it.

So not a word of criticism for the government, the ROSCO and the TOCs for not sorting this out several years ago? you and others are more worried about the wording of a press release than the issue. Sorry for caring about people. I give up.

 

[DB]

So not a word of criticism for the government, the ROSCO and the TOCs for not sorting this out several years ago? I give up.

You really do seem to have a chip on your shoulder!

I've said repeatedly that I don't think it's acceptable. Yes, the DfT should have sorted it out in time for the deadline (they were the only ones who could), but they didn't. However, there are actual plans in now in all cases, either new stock on order, or an ative programme of putting units through the works.

Therefore the RMT's press release which exaggerates the situation is not going to serve any purpose at all. It won't lead to new regulations, because the regulations already exist, and it won't speed anything up as that's dependant on the timescales of various engineering companies - i.e. how quickly they can do it.

 

[43096]

Wonderful. You seem happy to give the Government and private companies a free pass yet want to blame the union. Why is that? Did the union stop the government, the ROSCO and the TOCs from sorting this out several years ago?

Oh do stop putting words into peoples' mouths and stop jumping to conclusions based on responses to specific points.

No-one on this thread has said the practice is acceptable, yet you keep on accusing people. The debate on this thread is about the RMT's press release - if you're not capable of debating it sensibly without all the jumping to conclusions, accusations and general histrionics, then go someplace else.

 

[py_megapixel]

In my opinion, this whole thing - like many things involving franchised TOCs - is an utter shambles, largely because of the incompetence of the Department for Transport.

CET and PRM mods should have been requirements of franchises a decade or more ago. And if that would have meant that companies would not have bid for franchises then that is a pretty good sign that the franchising system is not fit for purpose. It's ridiculous.

However, as I said earlier, and as @43096 has said above, I don't believe any of this excuses the RMT's presentation of misleading, poorly worded facts to convince people of their viewpoint.

 

[DarloRich]

You really do seem to have a chip on your shoulder!

I've said repeatedly that I don't think it's acceptable. Yes, the DfT should have sorted it out in time for the deadline (they were the only ones who could), but they didn't. However, there are actual plans in now in all cases, either new stock on order, or an ative programme of putting units through the works.

Therefore the RMT's press release which exaggerates the situation is not going to serve any purpose at all. It won't lead to new regulations, because the regulations already exist, and it won't speed anything up as that's dependant on the timescales of various engineering companies - i.e. how quickly they can do it.

I am more worried about the issue involved. You and others are more worried about the wording of a press release. Lets leave it at that rather than argue.

Oh do stop putting words into peoples' mouths and stop jumping to conclusions based on responses to specific points.

No-one on this thread has said the practice is acceptable, yet you keep on accusing people. The debate on this thread is about the RMT's press release - if you're not capable of debating it sensibly without all the jumping to conclusions, accusations and general histrionics, then go someplace else.

I am not sure it is for you to decide what I post about or where I do so. I am more worried about the issue involved. You and others are more worried about the wording of a press release. Lets leave it at that rather than argue.

 

[mcmad]

I agree that there needs to be a clear plan, but it is all in the pipeline anyway so I'm not sure what further regulatory response is actually going to do.

wonderful, they now have a plan when the deadline was over 6 months ago. Sounds about right for this government

 

[Energy]

I am more worried about the issue involved. You and others are more worried about the wording of a press release. Lets leave it at that rather than argue.

I think everyone agrees that we shouldn't be dumping on the tracks, people are annoyed about the inaccuracies in the press release which make it misleading, such as stating that there is no plan when there is.

 

[Stewart2887]

I wonder how many posters have been hit by someone elses pooh while at work? It is fairly disgusting. I am surprised the RMT haven't made more of an issue about it frankly.

I've certainly been dampened by a "mist" standing at a level crossing as an HST went by. So not just stations, or trackworkers

 

[Speed43125]

I've certainly been dampened by a "mist" standing at a level crossing as an HST went by. So not just stations, or trackworkers

Definitely been there. In fact most clips of HSTs at speed seem to include at least one toilet jettisoning with the almost distictive mist.

 

[Martin66]

You don't seem to understand the point of all this. It isn't to generate an accurate story. it is to show how awful/greedy/lazy fat cat bosses/Tories are and how terribly they treat people. Once published this will do that. People here get hung up on the semantics. Focus on the bigger picture.

In any event this section is the key one:

Following answers to a number of Parliamentary questions RMT has learnt that eight major train operating companies continue to run trains that dump human waste on tracks and in stations across the rail network despite a pledge for the practice to end by the end of 2019.

Spot on.

 

[MCSHF007]

Oh do stop putting words into peoples' mouths and stop jumping to conclusions based on responses to specific points.

No-one on this thread has said the practice is acceptable, yet you keep on accusing people. The debate on this thread is about the RMT's press release - if you're not capable of debating it sensibly without all the jumping to conclusions, accusations and general histrionics, then go someplace else.

Applauds. Yes, there's a genuine issue with the sh*t under discussion (although I'd wager most of those not afflicted with Crohns/IBS etc. would probably opt not to "contribute" to the problem on other than the longest journeys) but the RMT really do need to grow up, accept the progress that is being made and also learn how to write decent English.