RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[nedchester]

Do you work in a industry that is effectively a 24/365 industry?

If your industry that you work in decided to bring in unsocial hours, Sunday work, to work all bank holidays, not have Easter or Christmas off would you stay or would you leave and with all of this not increase your salary? I believe in what is good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

Yes it does need to change, and change should be led from the top not the bottom, if i have a problem with my pay i cant get an answer on a Saturday, Sunday or after 20:00 hrs and most certainly not on a bank holiday which to me are normal days of work.

Like you have cynicism for the staff to be unavailable on these days, i am the cynic who believes the Guards are being shafted. It will always depend on your own personal viewpoint.

Yes. I work in the rail industry.

The change does need to come from the top but the unions also need to move as well. I wouldn't expect the basic pay to remain the same either. It is accepted there would still be grounds for limited overtime.

The point is that any 24/7 industry should not have to rely on volunteers. Imagine turning up at your local hospital and all the doctors and nurses aren't there because they didn't have enough volunteers? Imagine going on your holidays and the pilot hasn't volunteered to turn up (OK Ryan air might be different!)

Some jobs are 9-5 Monday to Friday but the rail industry is not.

 

[jamesst]

They joined after the ballot but are still protected. The law is different between crossing picket lines of your own union and that of another union. It's happening, my brother in law works at BC.

At most there's a handful of drivers at the depot in both unions

 

[HH]

That quote of £1500 came about as a result of me being part of group of staff to discuss uniform matters on London Overground of which the MD of the time was in attendance. The costs include sourcing the fabric needed, the design the company wanted, the cost of manufacturing the material, the costs of delivery, then the cost of providing staff the following 6 shirts, 3 pairs of trousers, 2 Jackets, 2 breast jackets, 1 winter coat, safety footware, 2 ties, belt, hats, gloves, bags. That is just the initial outlay, obviously costs will come down as staff will not need a full reissue and just get the stuff on a as and when required.

It's a bit more stuff than the normal TOC, but still, at £1500 someone saw LO coming. Even NR don't pay that much.

 

[Bungle965]

According to Liverpool Echo the guards have the support of the public.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyrail-strikes-working-echo-readers-13809943

Looking at social media reaction to our latest story about the next strike, the overwhelming majority of readers commented to say that they agree with the need for guards on trains and support the industrial action.

Gerry Jones said: “We need a guard. Never mind the doors; but who do we turn to if things go wrong?”

Marie Burns wrote: “I am right behind them , I get the train four times a week and on these dark mornings and dark nights it can be very scary for a woman. Knowing there is a second guard on board who you can call on makes you feel that little bit safer.”

Gary Burton asked: “Why can’t Merseyrail get it into there heads that we need guards on the trains, don’t know why they keep doing this.”

Raine Kenny added: “Definitely need a guard on our trains!!! I’m happy enough for the strike. Yes, it’s inconvenient for many but it needs to be done.”

These were just a selection of the comments supporting the action, which greatly outweighed those critical of it.

While this is in now way a scientific study of public opinion, it would appear to indicate that plenty of people are backing the union and the guards on this thorny issue.

Sam

 

[Bletchleyite]

My sister wants a second person on the train, but couldn't give a monkey's if they operate the doors or not - it is about staff presence in the passenger area rather than about what their precise role is. That may well be a majority view.

 

[trainophile]

On a train from Central to Southport today, and there was a tannoy "could the guard please contact the driver". Turns out there was concern about the performance of the train, which was failing to pick up speed after stops. Wonder what would have happened if there was no guard.

 

[Bungle965]

On a train from Central to Southport today, and there was a tannoy "could the guard please contact the driver". Turns out there was concern about the performance of the train, which was failing to pick up speed after stops. Wonder what would have happened if there was no guard.

The driver would have contacted the signaller/maintenance about the problems that he was having with the performance of the unit.
Sam

 

[trainophile]

The driver would have contacted the signaller/maintenance about the problems that he was having with the performance of the unit.
Sam

The guard subsequently made an announcement to passengers explaining why we were falling behind time. Would the driver do this in similar circumstances?

 

[Robertj21a]

On a train from Central to Southport today, and there was a tannoy "could the guard please contact the driver". Turns out there was concern about the performance of the train, which was failing to pick up speed after stops. Wonder what would have happened if there was no guard.

Err.... presumably he wouldn't have made the announcement ......??

 

[M28361M]

Things just got a lot more "interesting". http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-train-bus-workers-set-13818571

Arriva bus drivers are set to strike on the SAME day as workers on Merseyrail and Northern Rail in a move that could bring Merseyside to a standstill.

Drivers and engineers at Arriva across the North West were due to go on strike on Monday in a dispute over pay.

But now unions Unite and the GMB have confirmed four more strike days – including Wednesday, November 8, when the RMT has already confirmed its members will strike in their row over removing guards from trains.

Arriva bus workers are also set to go out on strike on every Monday in November, but Unite and GMB members have decided to add an extra strike day to coincide with the rail dispute.

A letter signed by Arriva’s Merseyside managing director Howard Farrell and Manchester managing director Phil Cummins, confirming the strike dates, has been given to Arriva staff.

8 November could be a very difficult day for travel on Merseyside.

 

[jamesst]

Things just got a lot more "interesting". http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-train-bus-workers-set-13818571

They still run trains and Stagecoach bus who cover a lot of areas in Merseyside aren't on strike. The Echo does love it's sensationalism!!

8 November could be a very difficult day for travel on Merseyside.

 

[jamesst]

They still run trains and Stagecoach bus who run to many areas of Merseyside aren't on strike. The Echo does love it's sensationalism!!

 

[AntoniC]

The trains will still run on the 8th November but it will be a VERY restricted service (First service from Southport is 7.00 am), I can get a Stagecoach bus but will need to catch it at 5.00 am !.
But I still support the strikers !

 

[Goldfish62]

The guard subsequently made an announcement to passengers explaining why we were falling behind time. Would the driver do this in similar circumstances?

Why wouldn't they?

 

[pemma]

The guard subsequently made an announcement to passengers explaining why we were falling behind time. Would the driver do this in similar circumstances?

I've been on services where a driver has made an announcement about a delay being due to waiting for the guard who has been delayed on another service.

 

[Polarbear]

They still run trains and Stagecoach bus who run to many areas of Merseyside aren't on strike. The Echo does love it's sensationalism!!

It's true that the Echo (and many other UK papers) like to sensationalise, but there's no getting around the fact that Nov 8 will be a pain in the proverbial to get around Merseyside!

Yes, there will be some trains, but a limited service, not stopping at all stations. Stagecoach don't exactly cover all of the Liverpool areas either and for those living in the many areas serves by only Arriva services, they'll be faced with some issues.

I for one am supportive of the strikes to be honest. Bus drivers are expected to put up with a heck of a lot in their day to day work, with seemingly little respect from management who seen divorced from the realities of the modern world. I also want to retain a presence of a second person on Merseyrail services as once it's gone, it'll be open season for anti-social behaviour.

Unfortunately, there is a conception amongst certain managers & senior people within organisations (my own included), that "everyone is a good person" and "everyone respects the rules". Those thought processes are being used as a cost cutting exercise and slim down organisations across the board. Although it's true that many people do behave like this, there is a growing minority that are well aware of the reduced scrutiny that this sort of mind-set affords, and exploit it accordingly.

Off topic, but to illustrate my point, earlier this week, I read an article on the web about speed cameras. It seems that around 1/3 of UK motorists are now handed speeding tickets from such devices as average speed cameras & laser traps. The article was "shocked" by the statistics, but in the whole piece, once salient fact was missing - if the drivers didn't exceed the speed limit, they wouldn't have got the fines!

So to those bosses out there who think that the public behave well and can be trusted if you withdraw or devalue your front line, customer facing staff - how does the above example square up with the great British public behaving themselves?

 

[furnessvale]

They still run trains and Stagecoach bus who run to many areas of Merseyside aren't on strike. The Echo does love it's sensationalism!!

Anyone would think the people of Merseyside don't have access to motor cars!

 

[pemma]

Anyone would think the people of Merseyside don't have access to motor cars!

Not everyone does, even in affluent areas. Even some households which have a car have 2 working age adults working in different locations.

It's usually the poorest and those with disabilities who are affected by strikes the most.

 

[Skie]

Anyone would think the people of Merseyside don't have access to motor cars!

When you have a city well provisioned with public transport you naturally see a lower level of car ownership. It's cheaper to get a train into Liverpool than it is to park there, and with the frequency of Merseyrail services you dont really have to plan your journey in advance. If you work there it's a no-brainer, and many employers will even front you the money for a season ticket these days.

I must admit the train is better when they are on a strike service for me, it haves my journey time due to them skipping so many stations

 

[fowler9]

Where I live in a posh bit of Liverpool it is quicker to walk to work than walk to where Stagecoach operate from and to. On the plus side I am off work for my birthday during the Arriva strike.

 

[Carlisle]

Off topic, but to illustrate my point, earlier this week, I read an article on the web about speed cameras. It seems that around 1/3 of UK motorists are now handed speeding tickets from such devices as average speed cameras & laser traps. The article was "shocked" by the statistics, but in the whole piece, once salient fact was missing - if the drivers didn't exceed the speed limit, they wouldn't have got the fines!

So to those bosses out there who think that the public behave well and can be trusted if you withdraw or devalue your front line, customer facing staff - how does the above example square up with the great British public behaving themselves?

I understand your reasoning but I don’t think a conscious decision by someone to have a violent confrontation with a fellow passager on public transport is a realistic comparason with car drivers slipping probably in many cases unintentionally marginally above a reduced speed limit during roadworks etc

 

[All Line Rover]

during roadworks etc

Or where the speed limit on a familiar road has been reduced overnight from 40mph to 30mph by the speed limit signs being replaced with, wait for it... nothing.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Having read all the way through, and as a regular MerseyRail traveller, there are some points I was surprised no-one has raised:

1. Capenhurst, Bache, Little Sutton and Overpool stations never have station staff. Ellesmere Port is only open short hours. This seems to contradict MerseyRail's statement about all stations staffed first to last train.
2. For the past month Port Sunlight station has been shutter down at 21:40 on a Thursday night, which means no way to buy a ticket at all. Same thing seems to happen on Sunday afternoons at the next stop down the line.
   
3. Level boarding requires first Network Rail to alter lots of platform heights, then keep the track in the correct place thereafter. Given they haven't kept it right thus far, how much will that cost and what happens when it doesn't?
4. Given that MerseyRail's passenger information is pretty hopeless on any sort of disruption, who will passengers ask about where the train is going? The front of the train only has final destination, no stopping information, and at many stations the train describers are the same. The only reliable solution is to ask the Guard (who if necessary asks the driver!). Do we think that BTP, byelaw enforcement or cleaners will be able to answer these questions?

As many others have said, trust in railway train operators has been undermined to the point where nothing they say is seen as relevant or reflecting their actual intentions - and the dispute starting on previously dispute-free South Western Railway just reinforces that view.

 

[Chester1]

Level boarding requires first Network Rail to alter lots of platform heights, then keep the track in the correct place thereafter. Given they haven't kept it right thus far, how much will that cost and what happens when it doesn't.

It is not Network Rails responsbility in this case. Altering the platform heights will be paid for by Stadler as part of their contract to build and maintain the new trains. I think the cost was estimated at £20m. It is an unusual arrangement but it probably helped Stadler win.

 

[Polarbear]

I understand your reasoning but I don’t think a conscious decision by someone to have a violent confrontation with a fellow passager on public transport is a realistic comparason with car drivers slipping probably in many cases unintentionally marginally above a reduced speed limit during roadworks etc

Yep, there is a difference there & I appreciate that. My argument is that we shouldn't be looking to reduce the on-board presence on our rail network, as (in my opinion), it will only serve to encourage anti-social behaviour and ticketless travel.

As for the issue regarding exceeding speed limits, I don't have any detailed statistics, but I would expect the rise in the numbers being fined being a mix of those "just" exceeding the limit and those going well above the limit. I'd add that I drive around 20,000 miles a year myself, and never have an issue with sticking at 50 through road-works that have average speed cameras operating. I'm always amazed, however, by the number of people who overtake me in said restricted areas. It's not just car drivers either, lorries (not necessarily foreign plates) and coach drivers too.

I would also question how many of those caught are speeding "unintentionally"? Although probably a discussion for another thread, it is the responsibility of each road user to drive within the rules of the road, and ignorance isn't an excuse, (as is the fact that a train driver wouldn't be able to use that pretext if caught speeding).

 

[Bookd]

Having read all the way through, and as a regular MerseyRail traveller, there are some points I was surprised no-one has raised:

1. Capenhurst, Bache, Little Sutton and Overpool stations never have station staff. Ellesmere Port is only open short hours. This seems to contradict MerseyRail's statement about all stations staffed first to last train.
2. For the past month Port Sunlight station has been shutter down at 21:40 on a Thursday night, which means no way to buy a ticket at all. Same thing seems to happen on Sunday afternoons at the next stop down the line.
   
3. Level boarding requires first Network Rail to alter lots of platform heights, then keep the track in the correct place thereafter. Given they haven't kept it right thus far, how much will that cost and what happens when it doesn't?
4. Given that MerseyRail's passenger information is pretty hopeless on any sort of disruption, who will passengers ask about where the train is going? The front of the train only has final destination, no stopping information, and at many stations the train describers are the same. The only reliable solution is to ask the Guard (who if necessary asks the driver!). Do we think that BTP, byelaw enforcement or cleaners will be able to answer these questions?

As many others have said, trust in railway train operators has been undermined to the point where nothing they say is seen as relevant or reflecting their actual intentions - and the dispute starting on previously dispute-free South Western Railway just reinforces that view.

If the response to any proposal in this and other disputes is to say 'we don't trust you and don't believe you' then nothing will ever be agreed and the disputes will go on forever.

 

[furnessvale]

Not everyone does, even in affluent areas. Even some households which have a car have 2 working age adults working in different locations.

It's usually the poorest and those with disabilities who are affected by strikes the most.

Figure 7.3 in the attached document shows the relative use of rail compared to other means of transport in Merseyside.
I am very much in favour of rail, but the RMT and others would do well to reflect on rail's value outside London.

http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/Site Documents/TiM2014_FINAL.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm always amazed, however, by the number of people who overtake me in said restricted areas.

Assuming you're going off your car speedo, they tend to over-read by up to about 5% because under-reading by even 1mph is illegal. As such it's quite possible many of them are in fact not speeding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is not Network Rails responsbility in this case. Altering the platform heights will be paid for by Stadler as part of their contract to build and maintain the new trains. I think the cost was estimated at £20m. It is an unusual arrangement but it probably helped Stadler win.

Regardless of this, Metrolink has had level boarding since day one and has not found this difficult.

 

[pemma]

Regardless of this, Metrolink has had level boarding since day one and has not found this difficult.

Although, the fact that the new trams sway more than the old ones had resulted in some low speed limits being introduced on the Altrincham line, so that the trams don't bang in to a platform edge on approach. This is very noticeable between Navigation Road and Altrincham when a tram and train are stopped at Navigation Rd at the same time. Obviously the tram is always quicker to move off - faster acceleration and not using a guard makes it much quicker but with the tram slowing down much sooner on approaching Altrincham, a DMU can later overtake the tram especially if it's a 150.