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RMT dispute on Merseyrail

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furnessvale

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As for labour saying they will do something if they get into power doesn't always reflect on what they actually do if they should get into power, they will probably set up a committee to look into it.
As far as rail is concerned that is a given. I was working for BR when Barbara Castle closed more miles of railway under the Beeching cuts than the preceeding Conservative government had done.
 
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Chester1

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Are all unionised guards in RMT or do some join the TSSA?

I picked my union partly because it was the less millitant choice. I think if your part of a union you should take part in strike because collective decision making is the basis of union power and ability to represent members. However, many unions seem to be run by people desperate to fight some sort of class war against the capitalists and I don't want to lose pay because of their games. If there is only one union to represent a type of worker then it is a very difficult choice if you don't agree with the decisions it makes.
 

Class83

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This strike action will at least cause disruption, the previous action on regular working days has had negligible effect for commuters. Not entirely sure that disrupting the locals' work Christmas Party is the way to build support though. The management will have to decide whether to sacrifice morning rush hour services to maintain evening service as they seem to have enough people trained to run 1 shift at half hourly service. Is the management party booked for the 22nd by any chance?

Though fundamentally all the RMT are doing is costing their members money. DOO will happen. Any permanent staff will continue to be employed by Merseyrail on the same salary. And passenger safety will be improved as the new trains follow proper hierarchy of controls to reduce the risk of people falling between the platform edge and train.
 

fowler9

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This strike action will at least cause disruption, the previous action on regular working days has had negligible effect for commuters. Not entirely sure that disrupting the locals' work Christmas Party is the way to build support though. The management will have to decide whether to sacrifice morning rush hour services to maintain evening service as they seem to have enough people trained to run 1 shift at half hourly service. Is the management party booked for the 22nd by any chance?

Though fundamentally all the RMT are doing is costing their members money. DOO will happen. Any permanent staff will continue to be employed by Merseyrail on the same salary. And passenger safety will be improved as the new trains follow proper hierarchy of controls to reduce the risk of people falling between the platform edge and train.
The last Friday before Christmas is known as Mad Friday in many places across the country. It isn't just the odd office party that will be affected, it will be the biggest take of the year for many bars and restaurants certainly in Liverpool that will be affected. The people of Speke are already going to be effectively isolated from the city by Arriva alone in the week leading up to Christmas unless they can get taxis everywhere or drive (And no offence to the people of Speke, but it isn't the wealthiest part of town).
 

Goldfish62

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As far as rail is concerned that is a given. I was working for BR when Barbara Castle closed more miles of railway under the Beeching cuts than the preceeding Conservative government had done.
Yes, although I am naturally left wing I have to agree that the railways do bizarrely tend to do better under the Tories. Apart from the totally unnecessary and dogmatic privatisation.
 

pemma

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However, many unions seem to be run by people desperate to fight some sort of class war against the capitalists and I don't want to lose pay because of their games. If there is only one union to represent a type of worker then it is a very difficult choice if you don't agree with the decisions it makes.

Agreed. The RMT complain about private companies getting cake from running franchises, while at the same time getting a slice of that cake for their members. If there was no cake in the first place the RMT members would be worse off.
 

pemma

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Is the management party booked for the 22nd by any chance?

Those on management salaries are less likely to be reliant on public transport for getting home - they can afford a taxi (even if they don't live that locally) or a night in a hotel. It's people like receptionists, administrators, recent graduates and security guards who might not be able to afford an alternative and many of those will earn less than train guards.
 

HH

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Although judging by the latest press release, they have finally worked out it isn't Merseyrail themselves wanting DOO, but the councillors holding the pulse strings at Merseytravel
And yet they can't resist blaming it on the "profiteering private rail companies" at the end. Exactly what is the national Labour Policy anyway?
 

pemma

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Exactly what is the national Labour Policy anyway?

Based on what Andy McDonald said in a recent interview if Labour win the next general election they'll be no additional DOO introduced, no mention of reversing any existing schemes. Given the next election is scheduled for 2022, as things stand, that wouldn't include stopping the existing Northern/Merseyrail/Southern schemes.
 

ivanhoe

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The last Friday before Christmas is known as Mad Friday in many places across the country. It isn't just the odd office party that will be affected, it will be the biggest take of the year for many bars and restaurants certainly in Liverpool that will be affected. The people of Speke are already going to be effectively isolated from the city by Arriva alone in the week leading up to Christmas unless they can get taxis everywhere or drive (And no offence to the people of Speke, but it isn't the wealthiest part of town).
Even if they were in the same bracket as Mossley Hill, the chance of getting a taxi back on Mad Friday is low, but 8 to 10 miles is some walk. It’s the Arriva bus strike that is harming the people of Liverpool, not Merseyrail. They exist mainly for getting Wirral,Formby,Maghull and Southport people into town and back. It also shows deregulation of buses for what it is. Replacing a Public Monopoly with a Private monopoly. Arriva are rarely challenged by Stagecoach on Merseyside. They co exist and the people of Speke are collateral damage. No change there!
 

trainophile

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The last Friday before Christmas is known as Mad Friday in many places across the country. It isn't just the odd office party that will be affected, it will be the biggest take of the year for many bars and restaurants certainly in Liverpool that will be affected. The people of Speke are already going to be effectively isolated from the city by Arriva alone in the week leading up to Christmas unless they can get taxis everywhere or drive (And no offence to the people of Speke, but it isn't the wealthiest part of town).

Not to mention the folk trying to get to Lime Street from all over the Merseyrail region for the big holiday getaway after finishing work.
 

Kite159

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The way I can see the dispute ending is with a partial victory for the RMT, with the new stock operating with a guaranteed member of staff onboard who will focus on customer service, however at the cost of all rail fares priced by Merseytravel being hiked (i.e. 50%+) so that the local authority can pay for both the new stock & keeping the staff happy.
 

urbophile

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The way I can see the dispute ending is with a partial victory for the RMT, with the new stock operating with a guaranteed member of staff onboard who will focus on customer service,
But that is what Merseyrail's publicity is effectively promising already. Somebody is being economical with the truth.
 

Class83

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The way I can see the dispute ending is with a partial victory for the RMT, with the new stock operating with a guaranteed member of staff onboard who will focus on customer service, however at the cost of all rail fares priced by Merseytravel being hiked (i.e. 50%+) so that the local authority can pay for both the new stock & keeping the staff happy.

The way I can see the dispute ending is when the new stock is introduced as planned by Merseyrail. The RMT can't afford to call a continuous strike and the one day efforts are mostly a nuisance. They can target Friday before Christmas, The National or big events in the city for a bit more impact. The Open isn't on Merseyside for the next 3 years so that option is out.

Steve Rotheram is a fairly pragmatic Corbyn supporter who has to run Merseytravel on a limited budget, the National Labour Party can engage in grandstanding that Rotherham, Burnham & Khan who actually have to balance budgets can't. 50% fare increases would be political suicide in Sefton and Wirral, Merseyside Labour would quite like to win Southport at the next election.
 

Class83

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Those on management salaries are less likely to be reliant on public transport for getting home - they can afford a taxi (even if they don't live that locally) or a night in a hotel. It's people like receptionists, administrators, recent graduates and security guards who might not be able to afford an alternative and many of those will earn less than train guards.
I was more meaning that if management are working on trains they won't be able to go to their pre-booked meal. Merseyrail guards are apparently on £27k, frankly they might be making as much as the more junior 'managers'. The Drivers on £46k almost certainly are. Most working people can afford a taxi home from their annual Christmas meal, though finding one with the buses off will be more of a challenge.
 

185143

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But that is what Merseyrail's publicity is effectively promising already. Somebody is being economical with the truth.
Only after 8PM...

Until then there may be someone onboard, there may not! Apparently the 'there will be someone rostered to every train after 8PM' idea is to give peace of mind in case of trouble.

Because crime only happens after 8PM apparently(!) Funnily enough, the times I've seen guards/BTP have to intervene (either due to ill passengers or disorder) have almost exclusively been during the day...

Merseytravel intend to employ around 60 Customer Service staff to work onboard-yet there are currently just under 200 guards. They cannot POSSIBLY cover every train, though their propoganda conveniently fails to mention that...

So yes, someone is indeed being economical with the truth!
 

Bletchleyite

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But that is what Merseyrail's publicity is effectively promising already. Somebody is being economical with the truth.

No it's not. There will be extra staff on specific trains where it is needed, e.g. rentathugs on known-problem evening vomit comets. There has never been a promise of an OBS-a-like nor anything resembling one, and it would be pointless - they barely serve any purpose on Southern as it is other than accessibility, which with 100% level boarding won't be a role necessary on Merseyrail.
 

Bletchleyite

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The way I can see the dispute ending is with a partial victory for the RMT, with the new stock operating with a guaranteed member of staff onboard who will focus on customer service, however at the cost of all rail fares priced by Merseytravel being hiked (i.e. 50%+) so that the local authority can pay for both the new stock & keeping the staff happy.

If that happens it's a disaster for everyone. Though I suppose *one* way to fund that if people *really* want it would be to destaff all the stations other than the termini/city centre ones where legally required, one TVM at each and do on-board ticket sales to make use of them.

That would, however, be a poor choice; PFs are a much better system for a metro, as is DOO - that's what you get pretty much the world over.
 

pemma

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Most working people can afford a taxi home from their annual Christmas meal, though finding one with the buses off will be more of a challenge.

Depends how close you live to work. I've known of people doing 30 mile commutes for c.20k jobs. A taxi home late on a Friday could cost as much as they've earned that day, if not more.
 

cactustwirly

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Only after 8PM...

Until then there may be someone onboard, there may not! Apparently the 'there will be someone rostered to every train after 8PM' idea is to give peace of mind in case of trouble.

Because crime only happens after 8PM apparently(!) Funnily enough, the times I've seen guards/BTP have to intervene (either due to ill passengers or disorder) have almost exclusively been during the day...

Merseytravel intend to employ around 60 Customer Service staff to work onboard-yet there are currently just under 200 guards. They cannot POSSIBLY cover every train, though their propoganda conveniently fails to mention that...

So yes, someone is indeed being economical with the truth!

I think that's the point...

All the stations are staffed, and the busy stations will have dispatchers, so there isn't any need for staff onboard every train.

The Munich S-bahn (basically Merseyrail with more lines) is perfectly safe, so I don't see any reason why DOO won't work on Merseyrail.

If you believe RMT propaganda, trains at home (Thames Valley) are unsafe, and I will be mugged and dragged along the platform on every train.
Which in actual fact I feel perfectly safe on them.

Sorry for the rant, but RMTs position on 'safety' really annoys me because it has no relevance to the Merseyrail dispute.
Anyway it's not their job to say what's safe and what isn't, it's the ORR and RSSB that do that.

If the RMT were honest, and said the dispute was about protecting jobs rather than 'safety' then they would get more support.
 
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pemma

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According to the RMT

List of councils in Rail North areas that are opposed to Driver Only Operation

Liverpool City Council

Sheffield City Council

Newcastle City Council

West Yorkshire Combined Authority

Doncaster Council

Sefton Council

Salford

Durham County Council

Lancaster County Council

City of York

Carlisle City Council

Cumbria County Council

Redcar and Cleveland

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-welcomes-rail-north-representatives-opposition-to-doo/

Ahem! Although, it could be they oppose DOO on Northern and support DOO on Merseyrail.
 

Carlisle

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If the RMT were honest, and said the dispute was about protecting jobs rather than 'safety' then they would get more support.
True, a statement amounting to,
“Many of our traincrew members are extremely concerned that proposed changes could very soon lead to a serious drop in wages, conditions and job security quite possibly to a similar level endured by many current railway and other sub contractors earning minimum wage or just above it alongside virtually no additional benefits”
might be a bit more realistic and gain more support.
 
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Robertj21a

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The RMT needs fresh blood at the very top but too few grass root members want to get involved.
 

furnessvale

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pemma

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Have any of those councils indicated how much they are prepared to put in the pot to cover the extra cost involved, or have they indicated a willingness that passenger fares should rise?

I think the RMT are being economical with the truth. Are Liverpool or Sefton council against DOO on Merseyrail, are Salford against DOO on Metrolink, are Sheffield against DOO on Supertram and are Newcastle against DOO on Tyne & Wear Metro? So unless the answer to all those is no the question is what did the RMT ask actually them? I seem to recall at one point the RMT were praising Stagecoach's decision to put a second member of staff on Supertram services, even though they have no door or dispatch duties.
 

Camden

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B&I

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I would be interested to hear if Liverpool city council was opposed to DOO. This is a council run by an executive mayor. The person who is currently in this position was previously head of the city's combined authority, and it was during his tenure that the deal for the new trains was signed.

Some interesting quotes from him in this article:
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseytravel-reveals-new-460m-train-12332902


If you mean the Fred Elliott tribute act who, for reasons I struggle to understand, was voted in again as mayor of Liverpool, he has been quoted opposing the RMT's strikes, but supporting the striking Arriva drivers, even though the former seem to have more grounds for concern about their long-term job security (on Northern at least), and any added largesse to the latter will no doubt be paid for by Arriva reducing still further the services they have already cut dramatically in the last few years.
 

pemma

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Why do Northern guards have more cause for concern? Northern plan to have 2 members of staff on all services and will introduce many additional services, so worse case scanerio is they continue being paid a guard's salary but don't do door and dispatch duties on every service they work.

On the other hand Merseyrail guards need to be found 'alternative employment' which might be trainee driver for some but it could be station cleaner for the unlucky ones.

It seems the underlying reason for the Arriva bus dispute is harmonisation of different contracts with staff at former MTL depots getting paid less.
 
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