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RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

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ComUtoR

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I expect a well paid driver to know how long their train is and whether they have stopped in the right place. In the unlikely event they screw up I expect passengers not to jump into a void - who steps out blind when platform stepping distances/heights vary?

Are you aware of how many stop short and door release events happen per year ?
 
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In the unlikely event they screw up I expect passengers not to jump into a void - who steps out blind when platform stepping distances/heights vary?
Never underestimate the power of stupid...
 

185143

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Driver open should be compulsory. Standing crushed against a door, staring at a platform, waiting for an SWR guard to open the doors is just bonkers.
I expect a well paid driver to know how long their train is and whether they have stopped in the right place. In the unlikely event they screw up I expect passengers not to jump into a void - who steps out blind when platform stepping distances/heights vary?
There was a video doing the rounds on twitter, I think during the GTR Southern strikes, of a GTR Great Northern train which had stopped short. Driver released the doors and people were indeed jumping out and walking to the platform...
 

Meerkat

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Jumping out is different - that’s passengers making their own choice. Not safe but not as disastrous as passengers falling out
 

ComUtoR

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So how many?

How many for which ? The number of incidents or the number of passengers who fall out or jump out ?

Let me tell you in advance that the statistics don't exist. Irrespective of my cynical nature, it is part of the reasons why Drivers and other staff see the dangers with Driver open. Its difficult to impossible to prove either way because the statistics aren't there to prove either.

The only thing we can say with certainty is that stop short and door releases happen. They could; prevent it and pretty much eliminate it overnight but due to costs and other factors, they won't.

Part of my previous comment is that technology like CSDE/SDO (correct side door enable/selective door operation) exist to specifically prevent these kind of incidents happening and as new stock is introduced and the technology is there to support the Drivers and help reduce incidents and increase safety, the arguments against DOO greatly diminish.

If you are prepared to accept Driver open, then you must accept that there will be a incident where someone opens it off the platform. That puts passengers at risk. Personally I do not accept that and support my colleagues in their decision to prevent the further rollout of DOO.
 

Meerkat

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Actually I don’t accept that should be a significant number of such events.
This isn’t car drivers (barely trained randoms), these are highly selected and trained individuals.
Are they missing the stop markers or forgetting how long their train is? It seems harder to excuse than SPADs with all their varied and complicated factors
 

pompeyfan

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Actually I don’t accept that should be a significant number of such events.
This isn’t car drivers (barely trained randoms), these are highly selected and trained individuals.
Are they missing the stop markers or forgetting how long their train is? It seems harder to excuse than SPADs with all their varied and complicated factors

most common is a lapse in concentration and temporarily forgetting formation, even with stock formation reminders. Overshoots due to poor adhesion focus the senses.

occasionally a driver will need to place the brake into emergency. This cannot be undone without the train coming to a stop, again this wouldn’t result in a driver release stop short as the driver would be aware of what is occurring.
 

Meerkat

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Do cabs not have a big flip chart type thing showing 4/8/12 on the pillar where it is in view when looking at stop markers?
 

Bletchleyite

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Do cabs not have a big flip chart type thing showing 4/8/12 on the pillar where it is in view when looking at stop markers?

I don't think so, and that wouldn't be a bad idea. But lorry and bus drivers still hit bridges (with the height written on them) even though their cab above their head has a big sign saying how high their vehicle is.
 

pompeyfan

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Do cabs not have a big flip chart type thing showing 4/8/12 on the pillar where it is in view when looking at stop markers?

I don't think so, and that wouldn't be a bad idea. But lorry and bus drivers still hit bridges (with the height written on them) even though their cab above their head has a big sign saying how high their vehicle is.

some units have them built into the dash near the speedo, other TOCs provide a flip book type chart that sits on the dash, but it’s still possible to ignore these accidentally.
 

Meerkat

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I don't think so, and that wouldn't be a bad idea. But lorry and bus drivers still hit bridges (with the height written on them) even though their cab above their head has a big sign saying how high their vehicle is.

True, but I have a lot more faith in the selection, training, and competence management, of train drivers. And think that bridge and vehicle heights are a lot more varied.
 

Carlisle

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From a personal perspective, DCO is the best of both words and should be the new minimal standard.
That’s exactly the system all the TOCs involved in these disputes had eventually agreed to compromise on, and genuinely believed they’d largely been settled, but the RMT has now moved the goalposts and only seem willing to offer driver open guard close as a potential solution , so we’re now deadlocked just as we were at the start of the GWR & Southern disputes .
 

pompeyfan

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That’s exactly the system all the TOCs involved in these disputes had eventually agreed to compromise on, and genuinely believed they’d largely been settled, but the RMT has now moved the goalposts and only seem willing to offer driver open guard close as a potential solution , so we’re now deadlocked just as we were at the start of the GWR & Southern disputes .

Im not defending the RMT here but I get the impression they are scared that if they agree to a method of operation where trains can run without a guard physically, that TOCs or the DfT will pie the grade off whenever they get the urge.
 

ComUtoR

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The human factors are very real and contribute to each and every incident. To highlight such human factors; consider my TOC. We are able to drive, 2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12 Car formations and in a single day drive various configurations. We have multiple stopping points with markers for multiple length units and different traction, the stop markers are inconsistent and vary between each station. Doors can be off-side or driver side. We also drive multiple traction so that too becomes a factor. With circa 100 stops in a single diagram and you have to be within 1m at all times, it is easy to see how a Driver can suffer both cognitive overload and underload.

We are human and humans are prone to error.

We are highly trained individuals but nobody is perfect. When you put the number of station stops you can do over a month into perspective the incident rates are relatively low. Which is pretty bloody remarkable and a testament to our skill and training.
 

Robertj21a

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Could I just suggest that all concerned read the Moderator's comments in post 8 of this thread if they want to avoid their posts being deleted........
 

Antman

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Try being on a crowded commuter train and the doors open. There will be a surge to the doors as those who can’t see whether it is or blow not at a platform come forward. Determined to get off. Elderly, infirm, Young, not so nimble, Or basically not a 6’4” 19 stone flanker but in their way and you could well be going backwards out the door .... the worst extrapolated version of that has been football disasters. The people at the back have no idea what’s at the front. People die in the most awful way.... you can’t really blame those at the back
 

Bletchleyite

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Or basically not a 6’4” 19 stone flanker

I suppose my views on these kind of things (and things related to personal safety generally, e.g. whether I might feel safe on a DOO train full of drunkards at midnight or not) are a little clouded by almost exactly fitting that description. (I don't play rugby, can't throw or catch for toffee, but I look like I do :) )
 

Antman

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I suppose my views on these kind of things (and things related to personal safety generally, e.g. whether I might feel safe on a DOO train full of drunkards at midnight or not) are a little clouded by almost exactly fitting that description. (I don't play rugby, can't throw or catch for toffee, but I look like I do :) )
I think you’re perfectly Suited to be a flanker :)
 

James James

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Actually I don’t accept that should be a significant number of such events.
This isn’t car drivers (barely trained randoms), these are highly selected and trained individuals.
Are they missing the stop markers or forgetting how long their train is? It seems harder to excuse than SPADs with all their varied and complicated factors
If people falling out due to short stops were a real issue, there would be news reports of this happening in countries where DOO is the bread and butter of railway operations.

Yet to hear of it happening where I live.
 

the sniper

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see I would argue that Southerns OBS has been sold as DCO, but the voyager system is 10 bell dispatch. The guard still has full responsibility for the train safety check etc

It has undoubtedly been sold as DCO, but I'm saying the DCO term predated its adoption for describing the concept of second manning on Southern and pushed by the DfT. Colloquially at least, I've known it used to describe the '10 bell' system of work on Voyagers long before the dispute on Southern.
 

Carlisle

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It has undoubtedly been sold as DCO, but I'm saying the DCO term predated its adoption for describing the concept of second manning on Southern and pushed by the DfT. Colloquially at least, I've known it used to describe the '10 bell' system of work on Voyagers long before the dispute on Southern.
That’s probably linked to the fairly low -key campaign the RMT ran for a while shortly after Voyagers were introduced In an attempt to get door panels modified for full guard control, which despite being unsuccessful in that particular aim did ensure the vast majority of stock delivered shortly after, contained guard door release facilities in addition to closure buttons.
 
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footprints

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Strike action every Saturday starting 16th November for the rest of the year.

Ballot was 89% in favour of strike action on a turnout of 79%.
 
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