RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

[Bletchleyite]

How would that change things ?

Given that the problems started when the Abellio management took over, a change of senior management would clearly move us towards a solution to the overall issues with the TOC, of which "advertising timetables you are never going to be able to deliver" is a major feature.

It wouldn't solve the strikes, but they aren't the main problem with this awful TOC.

 

[Komma]

Isn’t this particular dispute more internally RMT led,? given they signed an agreement with the TOC 18 months ago that a more militant faction then decided to quash,

No deal was signed 18 months ago.A framework agreement was presented to local level reps, this document gave an outline as to the future role of the guard and was a basis for discussions between WMT management and RMT company council reps. As LLC reps we were given 2 choices, vote to strike or enter into talks about the future of our role. We voted to enter into talks and after 18 months the talks broke down and we then voted to go on strike.
The company have tried to mislead the public and members of the RMT by saying that we signed an agreement 18 months ago,if this is the case I would love to see the document with my signature on it.

 

[Carlisle]

We voted to enter into talks and after 18 months the talks broke down and we then voted to go on strike.

Thanks for the reply. going by reports it sounds like talks broke down almost simultaneously over almost identical issues at Merseyrail SWR & WMT which suggests the union took a conscious decision centrally to move the goalposts & trigger ballots

 

[BucksBones]

So, from an outsider's point of view based on what I've read on here, it seems that LNR/WMT management have, in no particular order


Introduced a totally unworkable WCML timetable last May that was obviously going to result in regular disruption

Treated their staff with such disdain as to make them unwilling to work overtime, resulting in regular cancellations

Faffed around with stock refurbs resulting in too many units out of service at once, therefore regular short formations

Conducted themselves in such a way during Union negotiations as to bring on, or at least obviate, industrial action

Consistently refused to accept any responsibility for any of their current problems, even going as far as to produce an unfeasible strike timetable so they can once more pass the buck when it is, inevitably, not fulfilled.

Provided consistently poor information to customers


Anything else...??

I'm with Bletchleyite, they need to be given the boot. Unfortunately, without a functioning government, nothing will happen short or medium term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sounds a reasonable summary. What I find odd is that the same CEO seemed to do a reasonable job of Merseyrail when he was in charge of that - so what on earth gives?

 

[Carlisle]

That sounds a reasonable summary. What I find odd is that the same CEO seemed to do a reasonable job of Merseyrail when he was in charge of that - so what on earth gives?

Yes, when that Radio Merseyside phone in took place shortly after their new train order was announced, he came across as a very competent operator.

 

[DarloRich]

So, from an outsider's point of view based on what I've read on here, it seems that LNR/WMT management have, in no particular order


Introduced a totally unworkable WCML timetable last May that was obviously going to result in regular disruption

Treated their staff with such disdain as to make them unwilling to work overtime, resulting in regular cancellations

Faffed around with stock refurbs resulting in too many units out of service at once, therefore regular short formations

Conducted themselves in such a way during Union negotiations as to bring on, or at least obviate, industrial action

Consistently refused to accept any responsibility for any of their current problems, even going as far as to produce an unfeasible strike timetable so they can once more pass the buck when it is, inevitably, not fulfilled.

Provided consistently poor information to customers


Anything else...??

Seems spot on to me. I am sure the timetable works in a perfect world and on paper. It doesn't work in the real world. I would add they have given us crap trains on the Marston Vale but that is a minor point. Oh and the December 19 timetbale for the MV is really stupid. Its like they don't want to run the line..............

I note they were claiming the Saturday strike timetable had failed to work properly because staff were unwilling to cross picket lines.

 

[DarloRich]

Can anyone explain what happened with the “non strike workers refusing to go over the picket fence”???

I am not sure you quite understand the wording of the tweet. A picket line is a boundary established by workers on strike, especially at the entrance to the place of work, which others are asked not to cross.

For people from a left wing background crossing a picket line is simply not on. Conservative and particularly southern people in my experience take a different view.

 

[8J]

I am not sure you quite understand the wording of the tweet. A picket line is a boundary established by workers on strike, especially at the entrance to the place of work, which others are asked not to cross.

For people from a left wing background crossing a picket line is simply not on. Conservative and particularly southern people in my experience take a different view.

Funny isn't it that drivers from the depots at the southern end of the network in Conservative constituencies were the only ones who refused to cross picket lines. I believe all Crewe drivers (in a Labour constituency) booked on as normal for work on Saturday.

 

[DarloRich]

Funny isn't it that drivers from the depots at the southern end of the network in Conservative constituencies were the only ones who refused to cross picket lines. I believe all Crewe drivers (in a Labour constituency) booked on as normal for work on Saturday.

No idea what happened here. I was, luckily, in Leeds. I simply make a general point based on my experience of similar situations and of having lived in both the north east and the south east. General attitudes are different.

 

[Antman]

I am not sure you quite understand the wording of the tweet. A picket line is a boundary established by workers on strike, especially at the entrance to the place of work, which others are asked not to cross.

For people from a left wing background crossing a picket line is simply not on. Conservative and particularly southern people in my experience take a different view.

I think a lot of it is the fact that people have long memories, of cross picketing and militants. The 1970s and 1980s are still extremely fresh for many. I can remember my own father (a British Gas worker) spent lots of time doing labouring on building sites (in reality, he was fitting central heating systems for builders cash in hand) because British Gas were on bloody strike again, and he had a young family to house and feed). Today's strikes are a lot more co-ordinated and strategic targeted ones. And that's probably a good thing. Because the world has moved on since the days when management could ride roughshod over employees and unions (for their part) could do so much damage to their members/the businesses/jobs/the country. Nobody surely wants the old days back ?

The concept of one out, all out is interesting. Because basically it's similar to a democratic vote (to strike). But if you disagree with it, what do you do, abide by the voted majority ad infinitum (let's avoid BREXIT here ). In the General Strike, the miners carried on after it ended and ended up with a shockingly bad deal. Having lost income, jobs and dignity (it really wasn't heroic failure and the machinations of the more radical unions at the time stunk of an attempt at a revolution). At what point are members supposed to overrule/ignore the Union Executive. The cost of living being significantly different may well mean that those in the South can't afford to remain on strike for so long. And it would seem ridiculous to stay on strike when your home and family are at risk. To flip it around, just because a bunch of Northern people live in £100K Coronation St houses (I KNOW that's not true...(I'd go back tomorrow if my life could be uprooted) but it's a sentiment) they can afford six weeks sitting around. With a £400K mortgage on a godawful shoebox on a soulless estate in the middle of nowhere and 90 minutes to get to work and back every shift, we just don't have the same ability to remain on strike...

As a historopolitical point, the General Strike hurt a struggling (mining) industry. Which was struggling with geopolitical change (Germany being allowed to export being a major problem) and old technology and a refusal to modernise. Are railways not approaching a similar position on technology and advances ..... and the perception is that the Union is holding back. An Airbus can't fly without the computer basically being in charge. We trust that (I didn't pick Boeing !). The tech can work, I get the unions job is to protect safety (and that one really is to be supported) of passengers and their guys at the sharp end, and it's good if they can force the industry to make it safe. But at the moment, they're in a bit of a ditch - not dead, but refusing to move out of it. Cameras and safety tech are not good enough everywhere yet, but surely working with them helps everyone long term.... ?

 

[newtownmgr]

Thanks for the reply. going by reports it sounds like talks broke down almost simultaneously over almost identical issues at Merseyrail SWR & WMT which suggests the union took a conscious decision centrally to move the goalposts & trigger ballots

Merseyrail strikes were suspended last month after an agreement was reached, so your not exactly up to date. I believe a tentative agreement was reached on SWR which the company then back tracked on. As regards WMT as far as I’m aware no agreements had been reached despite management stating so!

 

[BucksBones]

As regards WMT as far as I’m aware no agreements had been reached despite management stating so!

That's exactly their problem in a nutshell. Why do that? You can't run a business by constantly and deliberately antagonising your workforce. No wonder talks are going nowhere.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Does anyone know if the Bordesley Parly ran today? If not then it'd be the first Saturday in years it's not run.

It was cancelled.
https://www.trainclaimer.com/trains/northwestern/583057/

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, when that Radio Merseyside phone in took place shortly after their new train order was announced, he came across as a very competent operator.

And it's clearly not an issue with the line, the units or the staff, because all of those were operating just fine in LM days - yet it all started to fall to bits days after Abellio took over, and it totally collapsed and never recovered the first day of the timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note they were claiming the Saturday strike timetable had failed to work properly because staff were unwilling to cross picket lines.

That much may be true, but I'm sure they could have worked that out (I very much doubt this happened without any murmerings of support) rather than just planning a timetable that only worked if everyone showed up and publishing it and finding they couldn't run it.

During strikes BR used to say they'd run nothing at all or a bare minimum (e.g. hourly 7am-7pm at main stations only on the lines operating), then add to it as the day went on based on who showed up, with everything kept simple e.g. a single unit on a line shuttling up and down with one crew dedicated to it. Even easier to do that now with quick communications.

Advertising late evening last trains with no certainty of being able to operate them nor of having enough buses to hand was absolutely despicable.

 

[DarloRich]

That much may be true, but I'm sure they could have worked that out (I very much doubt this happened without any murmerings of support) rather than just planning a timetable that only worked if everyone showed up and publishing it and finding they couldn't run it.

During strikes BR used to say they'd run nothing at all or a bare minimum (e.g. hourly 7am-7pm on the lines operating), then add to it as the day went on. Even easier to do that now with quick communications.

Advertising late evening last trains with no certainty of being able to operate them nor of having enough buses to hand was absolutely despicable.

I agree. All the information released during the week looked like a hostage to fortune.

 

[Carlisle]

Merseyrail strikes were suspended last month after an agreement was reached, so your not exactly up to date. I believe a tentative agreement was reached on SWR which the company then back tracked on. As regards WMT as far as I’m aware no agreements had been reached despite management stating so!

All 3 TOCs you mention above, agreed to participate in negotiations on the understanding the RMT would show some flexibility on the dispatch process, at least on brand new stock, providing the TOC committed to a second safety critical person onboard all trains, as demonstrated in their July 2018 Greater Anglia agreement.
The union then appeared to change its position at some point during that process to insisting guards had to close doors on all trains at all times & strikes resumed for that reason on SWR in June & Merseyrail in July, (Who chose to back down prior to their resumption) and of course the WMR ballot in September,

 

[sd0733]

And it's clearly not an issue with the line, the units or the staff, because all of those were operating just fine in LM days - yet it all started to fall to bits days after Abellio took over, and it totally collapsed and never recovered the first day of the timetable.

The management style up above is shocking. Just before I left a group of staff in uniform saw the MD, he saw us and looked at the floor in the opposite direction.
Back in the Much maligned LM days of Patrick Verwer and Tom Joyner, (who everyone always complained about at the time) it was a down to earth friendly atmosphere, all gone horribly sour since and i think even their biggest critics wouldnt be averse to a return to those late LM days.
I know the problems are far far deeper rooted than the hierarchy but something has to change, since I left I avoid the routes like the plague you just cannot rely on it nor trust it to get you anywhere remotely near the time planned.

 

[Antman]

I think the public would have much more sympathy with a strike that was framed in terms of safety and protecting their members. Like Poor Mr McGee. Who seems to have been hung out to dry and left during the trial he had (I suspect, if we are doing north versus south, that he’d not have been convicted had it not been Liverpool...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the public would have much more sympathy with a strike that was framed in terms of safety and protecting their members. Like Poor Mr McGee. Who seems to have been hung out to dry and left during the trial he had (I suspect, if we are doing north versus south, that he’d not have been convicted had it not been Liverpool...)

Hang on, which one? There were two cases - one was found not guilty after being dragged pointlessly through the Courts for something that wasn't in any way his fault - that was McGee, wasn't it? Merseyrail I believe supported him. The other one foolishly belled off a train when he could see that someone was leaning on it and that person was killed/life-changingly injured (I forget) as a direct result of that foolish act. I can't see any reason why either of them would be different had they happened on LNR rather than Merseyrail.

 

[Silverlinky]

The management style up above is shocking. Just before I left a group of staff in uniform saw the MD, he saw us and looked at the floor in the opposite direction.
Back in the Much maligned LM days of Patrick Verwer and Tom Joyner, (who everyone always complained about at the time) it was a down to earth friendly atmosphere, all gone horribly sour since and i think even their biggest critics wouldnt be averse to a return to those late LM days.
I know the problems are far far deeper rooted than the hierarchy but something has to change, since I left I avoid the routes like the plague you just cannot rely on it nor trust it to get you anywhere remotely near the time planned.

The issues seem to have got worse as the years pass, both on LM and now LNW.....but lets be honest, for LNW say WMT, and thats the problem. Everything is focused on Birmingham, all the bosses are there, they don't have a clue what goes on down south despite it being the LNW arm of the operation that provides them with the majority of their revenue and profits.

The same lines performed much better under the old North London Railways and then the Silverlink operation, because the managers, train planning, control etc were all local to the route. The company is just too big now, running over too many routes with too much traction, and too many staff on different terms and conditions. Yet it all seems to be run as if its Central trains.....which doesn't work.

Its rather telling in that in this current dispute it was the LNW end of the line where the other staff (Drivers) didn't turn up, and they managed to run pretty much the full advertised strike timetable in all the other areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit I did find that the issues in the early LM days basically seemed to result from moving the control to Birmingham who just didn't know how to run the south WCML - but it didn't take that long for them to work it out and the service generally got quite good.

I gave Abellio the benefit of the doubt for a fair while, but any goodwill has now long expired.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The issues seem to have got worse as the years pass, both on LM and now LNW.....but lets be honest, for LNW say WMT, and thats the problem. Everything is focused on Birmingham, all the bosses are there, they don't have a clue what goes on down south despite it being the LNW arm of the operation that provides them with the majority of their revenue and profits.
.

The poor service at the south end was also a problem in LM days, in my experience.

LM, unlike LNR, did list train cancellations. On the old (LM) timetable it was noticeable that it was very rare indeed for a London - Crewe service to be cancelled, but cancellations frequently affected the Euston - Birmingham section. I've personally been heavily delayed in LM days when down trains (from Euston) were turning back at Milton Keynes or up trains from Birmingham turning back at Coventry or Rugby - or both. The Crewe service covered the gap, but of course ran old line and missed Northampton. Fast* Euston - Northampton services were also cancelled.

As you say the Southern end must be a major source of income and contribution - I've already pointed out that the advance fares from Northampton to Euston are only very slightly below those from, say, Stafford.

Presumably the thinking is that the Trent Valley is in competition with Virgin, but down south we have no choice and can only travel LM/LNR.

*Well, what passes for 'fast' - av 60 mph on a 125 mph railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the old (LM) timetable it was noticeable that it was very rare indeed for a London - Crewe service to be cancelled, but cancellations frequently affected the Euston - Birmingham section

Apart from the occasional rest-day-working related tiff, I really didn't find that to be true - cancellations of the services I used were rate to the point that I can't actually remember them. Sloppy late running in the evening peak (5 minutes here, 10 there) was common, but we wish for that now! The peak time policy tended to be to run everything to its booked calling pattern so the capacity was at least there even if late.

 

[gazzaa2]

The poor service at the south end was also a problem in LM days, in my experience.

LM, unlike LNR, did list train cancellations. On the old (LM) timetable it was noticeable that it was very rare indeed for a London - Crewe service to be cancelled, but cancellations frequently affected the Euston - Birmingham section. I've personally been heavily delayed in LM days when down trains (from Euston) were turning back at Milton Keynes or up trains from Birmingham turning back at Coventry or Rugby - or both. The Crewe service covered the gap, but of course ran old line and missed Northampton. Fast* Euston - Northampton services were also cancelled.

As you say the Southern end must be a major source of income and contribution - I've already pointed out that the advance fares from Northampton to Euston are only very slightly below those from, say, Stafford.

Presumably the thinking is that the Trent Valley is in competition with Virgin, but down south we have no choice and can only travel LM/LNR.

*Well, what passes for 'fast' - av 60 mph on a 125 mph railway.

It's got to be a big issue on the doorstep for local MPs. Its affecting people getting to work and back every day as well as weekend leisure.

 

[Goldfish62]

That much may be true, but I'm sure they could have worked that out (I very much doubt this happened without any murmerings of support) rather than just planning a timetable that only worked if everyone showed up and publishing it and finding they couldn't run it.

During strikes BR used to say they'd run nothing at all or a bare minimum (e.g. hourly 7am-7pm at main stations only on the lines operating), then add to it as the day went on based on who showed up, with everything kept simple e.g. a single unit on a line shuttling up and down with one crew dedicated to it. Even easier to do that now with quick communications.

Advertising late evening last trains with no certainty of being able to operate them nor of having enough buses to hand was absolutely despicable.

Generally, during BR strikes little actually ran. There was no real incentive for the management to run a service.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Apart from the occasional rest-day-working related tiff, I really didn't find that to be true - cancellations of the services I used were rate to the point that I can't actually remember them. Sloppy late running in the evening peak (5 minutes here, 10 there) was common, but we wish for that now! The peak time policy tended to be to run everything to its booked calling pattern so the capacity was at least there even if late.

Fair comment, I accept that my own experience was anecdotal. My travel is entirely for leisure now, and is quite often against the peak. However, I do stand by the comment that, on the much missed WM Journey Check site, cancellations on the Euston - Northampton - Birmingham axis outnumbered by a factor of several those on the TV service.

Particularly frustrating for me when waiting at MK for a Northampton train was to check the platform display and hear the two automated announcements for a service only to see it stop outside and then cross onto the up side and become an up train. The train I hoped for then disappeared from screens. There are. of course, no platform staff working for this or the previous TOC.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It's got to be a big issue on the doorstep for local MPs. Its affecting people getting to work and back every day as well as weekend leisure.

When Beeching brought down his axe, Northamptonshire was left with only 5 stations (one of which was King's Sutton, which everyone thought was in Oxfordshire). There were no public protests or press campaigns. Two parts of the trackbed of the Northampton - Peterborough line became trunk roads, as did a section of the Northampton - Blisworth line (the latter partly electrified) and presumably the Council thought this was a better use of the land - they certainly improved East and West road links.

When the concept of councils subsidising public transport was being adopted our County Council declined this opportunity, resulting in considerably reduced bus services in the County (particularly on Sundays) in 1976. Without naming names or party, one can safely say the council leader concerned at the time did not need to use a bus if his car broke down - he had several others, in the .days when that was unusual. There was no public or press reaction

Some time ago, when MML was in the habit of ensuring that trains reached their ultimate destination within the parameters of 'on-time + 5 (?) minutes' (so as to avoid the penalty charge regime for lateness at destination which then applied) by running trains non stop through their two Northamptonshire stations to reduce delay I did approach the appropriate Rail User Group but it was clear that the representative I spoke to did not even understand the issue.

I think this shows that there's a history of indifference around here. Sadly, I don't think that Northamptonshire MPs will get involved; public transport and railways are seen as irrelevant. It's too far from London (time-wise) to be much of a rail commuter county, there hasn't been much of a rail service Northbound for years and the road network is particularly good. Outside the towns, it's generally very affluent. It's not something I ever hear anyone even mention.

 

[Goldfish62]

Hang on, which one? There were two cases - one was found not guilty after being dragged pointlessly through the Courts for something that wasn't in any way his fault - that was McGee, wasn't it? Merseyrail I believe supported him. The other one foolishly belled off a train when he could see that someone was leaning on it and that person was killed/life-changingly injured (I forget) as a direct result of that foolish act. I can't see any reason why either of them would be different had they happened on LNR rather than Merseyrail.

McGee was the one in the latter case. I don't about the former case.