RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

[Bletchleyite]

In an urban environment yes, but rural halts with just three trains a day?

That would be silly and would just cause another Beeching.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That’s theoretically a good idea but in practice a complete waste of time given the RMTs position is currently so entrenched & wouldn’t accept any verdict other than it being deemed unsafe & should be discontinued.

I understand the reasoning behind your post but if you add proper passenger representation to such a review I suspect all concerned on both sides of the debate would realise that their entrenched positions, at both extremes, are not necessarily in the interests of actual fare paying passengers. And without passengers there is no point to the railways in the first place. It's time their voices were heard but in a calm environment away from the glare of the media spotlight.

 

[Meerkat]

It’s hardly surprising that drivers might prefer guards with them.
Most workers would answer the same way. But companies are not run for the convenience of employees.
As for “it’s just to save money”, well that is a positive thing in a taxplayer supported industry.

 

[Robertj21a]

We say that we don't want to restart a debate about DOO/DCO in itself and I certainly agree that it was done to death in the Southern/OBS thread - but that was quite some time ago now and attitudes appear to have changed (a little) - by rail staff becoming a bit more pragmatic versus the RMT becoming ever more ruthless at maintaining their stranglehold with strikes etc.

If we don't want an 'updated' DOO/DCO debate then I don't see how this thread can really progress.

 

[pompeyfan]

We say that we don't want to restart a debate about DOO/DCO in itself and I certainly agree that it was done to death in the Southern/OBS thread - but that was quite some time ago now and attitudes appear to have changed (a little) - by rail staff becoming a bit more pragmatic versus the RMT becoming ever more ruthless at maintaining their stranglehold with strikes etc.

If we don't want an 'updated' DOO/DCO debate then I don't see how this thread can really progress.

I believe this thread should remain as a vehicle to discuss how WMT are coping (or not) with their strikes and their contingency plans etc, and any other strikes that may be called.

I’ve reported the SWR thread a couple of times to get that reopened in the run up to the strikes on their network, but got no luck.

I actually would like to see an updated DOO argument thread similar to you, but in its own thread and with strict rules, like you say I think the mood has changed in some places.

 

[Cambrian359]

I believe this thread should remain as a vehicle to discuss how WMT are coping (or not) with their strikes and their contingency plans etc, and any other strikes that may be called.

I’ve reported the SWR thread a couple of times to get that reopened in the run up to the strikes on their network, but got no luck.

I actually would like to see an updated DOO argument thread similar to you, but in its own thread and with strict rules, like you say I think the mood has changed in some places.

as long as topics get locked the discussion will always end up carrying on into another thread and then that thread goes off topic and gets locked......and so the cycle continues on and on and.........
I’ve only been on here a year and I’ve seen this exact cycle play out numerous times.....
The TFW stock shortage thread being a good example, it was locked because someone decided there was no longer a stock shortage( when there absolutely was!) so then the discussion just broke off into multiple other topics causing them to go off topic and mods kept having to step in to correct their course.......after a couple of weeks another TFW stock shortage thread was then created
If a thread starts recycling with the same discussion and argument then the simplest thing people can do is just stop reading that thread!
This is a very active and informative forum with people joining all the time so it’s just natural for discussions to do 360s
And now I’ve gone off topic , apologies it just gets my back up when topics gets locked or people request they get locked when the subject matter is very much still in play as it rarely solves the problem but just moves it along elsewhere....

 

[ElectroSoldier]

In an urban environment yes, but rural halts with just three trains a day?

What is the price of a persons life?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the price of a persons life?

There is one (there has to be for calculating road safety improvement viability) and it doesn't justify staffing rural halts. Not in a million years.

They'd close before they got staffed. Do you want that?

If H&S got obsessive enough that regular dispatch was only considered permissible at a staffed platform, local door could be used at such locations - by definition they're quiet.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

There is one (there has to be for calculating road safety improvement viability) and it doesn't justify staffing rural halts. Not in a million years.

They'd close before they got staffed. Do you want that?

If H&S got obsessive enough that regular dispatch was only considered permissible at a staffed platform, local door could be used at such locations - by definition they're quiet.

So in your eyes you are only worth a small portion of a say £30,000?
If there is a real risk to somebodies life then yes I would prefer it closed!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So in your eyes you are only worth a small portion of a say £30,000?

There is a figure used for the value of a life to allow calculation of cost-benefit analysis for safety improvements, yes. It is worth having such a figure for such decisions, which should only ever be carried out with cold, hard facts in mind and NEVER on an emotional basis. (That's why victims should never decide changes after an accident).

If there is one death every 100 years at a station and a member of staff cost £30K pa, that's a lot more than £30K, anyway!

If there is a real risk to somebodies life then yes I would prefer it closed!!!

There really isn't. If there was, however, if closing it meant they walked, cycled or drove, they would be at a far higher risk.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

My god is this what we have come.

 

[Class 170101]

Deleted

 

[pt_mad]

I can't help wondering whether the operator may at some point concede to full guard door close operation rather than letting this go the duration? It seems that there's every possibility that strikes will continue indefinitely unless movement is made towards the RMT position.
Would the operator have scope to make a concession like that or are they literally stopped from allowing that by the DFT?
If the Saturday timetables and lack of trains running causes major issues ongoing, then at what point what an operator say enough is enough with price of sticking to it's guns being not worth it?
Is it possible the local combined authority would at some stage say enough is enough?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the outcome will be, like it has been pretty much everywhere else except GA[1] (and I think it could well be pushed there again), driver open guard close (as there is no intention to remove guards entirely, there's little money to be saved by dogmatically insisting on the role - just the cost of a minor variation to the Aventra order to put in guard panels at a couple of doors per coach). I'm in support of this method of operation as I've said before, but not so much the way of getting there.

Driver open guard close will save about 10 seconds per station stop on the present method of operation, so that's a gain for everyone.

[1] I forget about Northern - are the 195s and 331s full guard operation or driver open guard close?

 

[Sprinter107]

How will it save 10 seconds, as there are 10 bells involved.

 

[Sprinter107]

Weve all worked out that the procedure will take longer

 

[Sprinter107]

Certainly on the routes that we work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How will it save 10 seconds, as there are 10 bells involved.

There aren't ten bells involved in proper driver open, guard close (such as that used on the Pendolino, or was used on Southern before they went for DOO-with-OBS and still is used on Southern WCML services), there are 4. I hope they don't use ten-bell, it's a cack-handed workaround to saving 50p fitting a close button for the guard.

The 10 seconds (well, 5-10, but Desiro door operation is VERY slow) are saved in the avoidance of the need for the guard to open the local door and step onto the platform to check before releasing.

To be fair this can also be saved by adopting the former SWT method of allowing the guard to release all doors at the same time rather than local first if he is sure the train is correctly platformed.

 

[Sprinter107]

In the method they want to bring infor us, there will be 10 bells involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the method they want to bring infor us, there will be 10 bells involved.

I do hope that isn't what is used. We are however talking about WMT.

Having said that, 10-bell doesn't cause much delay on Voyagers where it's been used for years.

 

[Sprinter107]

Well, that is what is proposed. And it will cause more delay than the present system. The Voyagers arent stopping every 2 to 3 minutes like the trains I work do.

 

[387star]

Are the Tories deliberately dragging these disputes out so they can create discontent and raise support for their policies to weaken unions?

 

[pt_mad]

The thing is, if the RMT aren't likely to give massive movement from their position, and they maintain the right to strike by law if that's what members vote for, then surely either the operator would either have to move or just let strikes go on potentially until new trains actually arrive?
If the operator is likely to change position and agree driver close doors at some point, then it would seem like a lot of pain if strikes went on for a long time to end up there when I assume it could potentially be agreed now.

 

[pompeyfan]

Someone asked earlier if WMT would be allow to compromise with the RMT, and do driver open, guard close.

there is a very strong rumour from multiple sources that SWR, RMT, ORR and RSSB came to an agreement, SWR went off to the DfT to ask them to sign off, in the meantime RMT put out ‘that statement’ which upset the DfT and so they torpedoed it and took all previous offers off the table too...

As I say, the about is a rumour floating around on social media, but if it were true you’d expect the RMT to be singing off the rooftops...

 

[STKKK46]

I do hope that isn't what is used. We are however talking about WMT.

Having said that, 10-bell doesn't cause much delay on Voyagers where it's been used for years.

Voyagers have 1.5 min dwell at every station, compare that to WMT average 45 seconds...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Voyagers have 1.5 min dwell at every station, compare that to WMT average 45 seconds...

True. For the record, I don't support 10-bell, it's a cack-handed workaround to providing close buttons for the guard, which on a multiplexed digital train design is not going to be that hard to do as you wouldn't need dedicated wiring, just a button connected into the train's central bus. I really don't know why Voyagers were built like that, unless there was some proposal for sneaky DOO later, but only at stations with dispatchers?

 

[Merle Haggard]

compare that to WMT average 45 seconds...

I'm puzzled by that; perhaps you mean 323s.
On the 350s, when the train stops the conductor releases his door, walks across the platform to make sure the train has stopped in the right place, returns and presses the button to open the door. The air system then thinks about releasing the seals before the doors slowly open.
That's before anyone gets off.
I'll have to time it on my next journey, but I'm sure it's more than 45 secs. per stop.
It is a contrast, I know, to the 323 on which response times seem to be almost instantaneous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the 350s, when the train stops the conductor releases his door, walks across the platform to make sure the train has stopped in the right place, returns and presses the button to open the door. The air system then thinks about releasing the seals before the doors slowly open.

350 doors are slow, but the air system isn't "releasing the seals" when the door opens in the way you suggest.

 

[Carlisle]

I understand the reasoning behind your post but if you add proper passenger representation to such a review I suspect all concerned on both sides of the debate would realise that their entrenched positions, at both extremes, are not necessarily in the interests of actual fare paying passengers. And without passengers there is no point to the railways in the first place. It's time their voices were heard but in a calm environment away from the glare of the media spotlight.

Genuine attempts were made & considerable time spent at Merseyrail via ACAS & WMR to try and agree a new passanger facing role whilst conceding the RMTs wish for trains not to run DOO but simply ended up hijacked by those who wouldn’t relinquish the perceived bargaining power of controlling doors , so currently it would be a pointless exercise

 

[Carlisle]

What is the price of a persons life?

Given the last passanger dispatch related death was on a guarded train, what’s the point in making such provocative statements like that on this thread ?