RMT on the possible 2 year pay freeze

[bizman]

UK rail union threatens industrial action if pay is frozen for two years

RMT leader Mick Cash furious after all 22 rail operating companies told there is no money to raise wages

www.theguardian.com

The UK’s best-known rail union has said it will have “no hesitation” in supporting industrial action if ministers press ahead with reported plans for a two-year pay freeze for rail workers.

Transport minister Chris Heaton-Harris is understood to have written to the bosses of the UK’s 22 passenger rail companies warning that there is no budget to increase wages for their 62,000 workers.

In the letter he said the subsidies being pumped into the industry were “not sustainable”. Passenger numbers have fallen to around 15% of what would normally be expected, causing a huge drop in revenues.

Is this typical blustering or could they actually organise a national walkout of staff?

 

[Richard Scott]

UK rail union threatens industrial action if pay is frozen for two years

RMT leader Mick Cash furious after all 22 rail operating companies told there is no money to raise wages

www.theguardian.com

Is this typical blustering or could they actually organise a national walkout of staff?

Just join the club, many of us not getting a pay rise.

 

[87electric]

The perfect time for the DfT to take on the Unions.

 

[matacaster]

When you have only 15% of normal passengers at the moment and you have a strike, the Govt will take the opportunity to do to the railways what happened to the miners and would get public support. Perhaps a look at other businesses such as retail and the mass redundancies might be useful. Who is advising the rail unions - Arthur scargill?

 

[Domh245]

He'd be a pretty poor union leader if he didn't try to oppose this in some way, but it's an unwinnable situation. Getting a payrise when so many who are perceived as more 'useful' to the country (ie doctors, nurses, policemen, etc) aren't won't endear you with the public, especially when passenger numbers have collapsed as they have and the industry is on life support at the taxpayer's expense and their preferred (/only good) bargaining chip has been made no-impact to the TOCs because of the complete lack of customers to impact

I can only hope that this is a pragmatic "make noises about it but then accept the freeze" but knowing the RMT...

 

[Bikeman78]

I can only hope that this is a pragmatic "make noises about it but then accept the freeze" but knowing the RMT...

I'm confident that the late Bob Crow would have followed that path.

 

[bizman]

All true, but when has the public ever supported strikes?

 

[DB]

He'd be a pretty poor union leader if he didn't try to oppose this in some way,

Well, no, he wouldn't really. In normal circumstances I'd agree with you, but not at the moment.

If they can avoid pay cuts and redundancies then realistically they'll have done a lot better than many people, and demanding pay rises really won't go down well with most of the population.

All true, but when has the public ever supported strikes?

There is often a level of toleration - which there probably wouldn't be in this case, given the circumstances.

 

[387star]

The staff on the ground mostly do not wish for a pay rise so I suspect we won't see strike action.

Recently on ScotRail a ballot on not receiving a pay rise returned a no vote. Of course it could look bad if Drivers get a rise and RMT staff don't. It's the cleaners that arguably deserve it especially the low paid agency workers.

 

[winks]

Mick Cash can call strikes but it literally would have no effect ...look at what happened with Southern pre COVID. If a guards pay goes up a £1000 a year for 20 years then there is very little sympathy from the public. Time for restraint.

 

[Philip]

I don't think a pay rise is appropriate or justified this year for obvious reasons, but railway staff are still on the front line one way or another and having to go out to work; either facing the public or delivering services like keeping the trains moving or the signals set.

 

[Killingworth]

When you have only 15% of normal passengers at the moment and you have a strike, the Govt will take the opportunity to do to the railways what happened to the miners and would get public support. Perhaps a look at other businesses such as retail and the mass redundancies might be useful. Who is advising the rail unions - Arthur scargill?

This is railway forum with rail staff and railway centric contributors. The general population doesn't see things as clearly as most contributors here. The RMT and ASLEF must do the best they can to protect their members.

The public is already turning against HS2. They're unhappy about delays and costs of Crossrail. Subsidies going to rail were coming under greater scrutiny before Covid. Costs are going to have to be cut very soon. 15% of normal passenger numbers needs repeating. There will be routes doing better than that but it tallies with what I see. Subsidies to maintain railways are enormous.

That is nor a scenario for increases in wages. It's a background for big economies and that means cutting out any payments that can be avoided. Reducing the wage bill is one way, natural wastage, redeployment, early retirement, redundancy. As a union leader I'd start rattling cages now, sure, but that's because I'd be preparing a strategy to protect as many jobs as possible, and get the best deals achievable for those who leave. Pay is a secondary issue over the next 12 months or so.

With services already massively cut back the threat of industrial action to further reduce services would be totally counter productive. We're already at a point where totally shutting down passenger services for 6 months would inconvenience very few. The vast majority would barely notice. Many would advocate that as a sensible course.

As others have noted, the NUM had loyal members, but society has got used to managing without coal, and almost without the NUM. The rail unions aren't blind to the realities of the situation.

Of course it's remotely possible that we'll be seeing huge increases in passenger numbers by May. Possible, but increasingly unlikely.

 

[yorkie]

I've moved the discussion regarding the potential for increased passenger numbers from May into the following thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tional-rail-passenger-numbers-recover.213729/

If anyone wishes to discuss anything that isn't directly related to the 2 year pay freeze, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) or use an existing one (if there is)

 

[Killingworth]

Why do you think it is unlikely we will see huge increases in passenger numbers by May? Assuming the vaccine roll-out stays on track, by May we should be in a much better position. People will want to travel again and I can't see people intentionally avoiding using the train; those who have been driving instead of using the train for the last 10 months are probably sick of using the car and this is where the railway will benefit.

This is discussed on other threads. What do I mean by huge increase? We might get up to 30%, that would be a doubling from where we are now. Some stations and lines will do better than others. Hopefully we'll see better on 31st May than by the 1st. However a year of managing without trains has to be seen within the context of the many other changes society is experiencing.

I have used trains since last March, and will do again. The people I've seen are mostly not the ones that need convincing it's safe. The 85% are the ones who may come back for 2 or 3 days a week instead of 5, if and when they do come back. The TOCs have done research but until restrictions are relaxed for good it's all conjecture.

 

[yorksrob]

The worst thing the rail unions could do for their members at this stage would be to drive passengers away with strike action. If passengers are faced with a situation as occured with Northern Rail a year or two ago when restrictions are released, they just won't bother to come back.

 

[Goldfish62]

One issue is that inflation is at historically low levels and is likely to remain so for a good while yet. Therefore a pay freeze at this stage is going to less of an adverse impact on household cost of living than if inflation was higher.

 

[Killingworth]

The worst thing the rail unions could do for their members at this stage would be to drive passengers away with strike action. If passengers are faced with a situation as occured with Northern Rail a year or two ago when restrictions are released, they just won't bother to come back.

I thought that, but was amazed to see Hope Valley Northern trains ramned full the first Saturday after the strike was lifted.. I'd expect similar for younger leisure users once rules allow. It was starting to happen in December. The revenue volume comes from 5 day week commuters. They were already hacked off with railway failings before the pandemic and will be much harder to get back.

Commuters need reliable services. At present we can't see a regular timetable for more than a few weeks ahead, and they get changed with a few days notice. When an hourly service goes to 2 hourly with no notice on the station and the busiest train of the day is one that's cut another swathe of users makes other arrangements. The alternative taking half an hour longer may have to do for some.

It's not a good time to rock the boat any more.

 

[yorksrob]

I thought that, but was amazed to see Hope Valley Northern trains ramned full the first Saturday after the strike was lifted.. I'd expect similar for younger leisure users once rules allow. It was starting to happen in December. The revenue volume comes from 5 day week commuters. They were already hacked off with railway failings before the pandemic and will be much harder to get back.

Commuters need reliable services. At present we can't see a regular timetable for more than a few weeks ahead, and they get changed with a few days notice. When an hourly service goes to 2 hourly with no notice on the station and the busiest train of the day is one that's cut another swathe of users makes other arrangements. The alternative taking half an hour longer may have to do for some.

It's not a good time to rock the boat any more.

Yes, although its worth remembering that the Northern strikes only became "all Saturdays" later on. Reliability will be the key to passengers coming back.

 

[dctraindriver]

All true, but when has the public ever supported strikes?

The 2016 Junior Doctor strike was supported by the public on the whole.

A strike by railway workers will have very little support at this time. My own opinion only but I hope as an industry we use some common sense and we keep our powder dry. If any rises are to occur those who should get it are the ones on lower salaries. I’ll be happy to take a freeze.

 

[vikingdriver]

Do we think think this would apply to existing multi year pay deals or just yet to be negotiated ones?

 

[Goldfish62]

The 2016 Junior Doctor strike was supported by the public on the whole.

A strike by railway workers will have very little support at this time. My own opinion only but I hope as an industry we use some common sense and we keep our powder dry. If any rises are to occur those who should get it are the ones on lower salaries. I’ll be happy to take a freeze.

And of course the junior doctors lost that dispute.

 

[jonnyfan]

The RMT have a duty to stick up for its members, so word of a pay freeze will always produce a reaction from them. I would expect it will lead to a strike ballot, however, I would not expect it would get enough support to lead to any strike action - just as what happened at ScotRail a few months back. There is no appetite for strike action on the ground.

 

[Cazbar]

Not all staff would agree with a strike for pay and one solution would be for the unions to ask for all rail staff to get the same Tavel passes. I know lots of staff that would willingly give up a pay raise if they could get the same passes as the old BR staff and it wouldn't cost the government a penny. Government happy staff happy and unions happy.

 

[Killingworth]

Not all staff would agree with a strike for pay and one solution would be for the unions to ask for all rail staff to get the same Tavel passes. I know lots of staff that would willingly give up a pay raise if they could get the same passes as the old BR staff and it wouldn't cost the government a penny. Government happy staff happy and unions happy.

A good bargaining chip, especially with potentially all but empty trains.

 

[Dr Day]

it wouldn't cost the government a penny

Presumably some staff currently pay fares for their travel (even if discounted), so that revenue would be lost to National Rail.

Wouldn't be surprised to see some suggested changes to pensions, certainly for new entrants/new contributions. Not the biggest staff cost element but one that if addressed now could have longer term savings.

 

[yorksrob]

Not all staff would agree with a strike for pay and one solution would be for the unions to ask for all rail staff to get the same Tavel passes. I know lots of staff that would willingly give up a pay raise if they could get the same passes as the old BR staff and it wouldn't cost the government a penny. Government happy staff happy and unions happy.

A good bargaining chip, especially with potentially all but empty trains.

That would be a good tangible benefit.

Also it can't be eroded by inflation.

 

[Horizon22]

I think rail staff - myself included - should be thankful to a) still be in a job, b) with no pay cuts and c) in many circumstances, have reduced hours, d) in many circumstances, have less intensive work. I don't think pretty much any other industry has had such a good set of circumstances from the pandemic.

The RMT need to gain some perspective on this and how damaging it could be to the railway's (already somewhat tarnished) reputation.

Not all staff would agree with a strike for pay and one solution would be for the unions to ask for all rail staff to get the same Tavel passes. I know lots of staff that would willingly give up a pay raise if they could get the same passes as the old BR staff and it wouldn't cost the government a penny. Government happy staff happy and unions happy.

It would if countless staff who already pay for travel no longer do. I agree in the grand scheme of things it won't be a drop in the ocean, but its not cost neutral.

 

[david1212]

I think rail staff - myself included - should be thankful to a) still be in a job, b) with no pay cuts and c) in many circumstances, have reduced hours, d) in many circumstances, have less intensive work. I don't think pretty much any other industry has had such a good set of circumstances from the pandemic.

The RMT need to gain some perspective on this and how damaging it could be to the railway's (already somewhat tarnished) reputation.

Going right back to pre-teen age if asked about my future job I would have said ' Train Driver '.

As things turned out instead I went into engineering. One aspect from both career service advisors and the UK situation then was that it was considered a secure career i.e. if a company closed there would be plenty of others seeking similar skills. 40 years later and before Covid was heard of the situation was very different. I'd have to look back confirm but I think my last wage rise was 2015. Now the situation is even worse. If my employer can not constantly secure sufficient new orders the company will close. If that happens and I can secure another job it will only be unskilled.

I'm well aware there have been changes in terms and that most railway work has a shift pattern but in comparison salaries have increased in real terms plus there is a package of pension, health care etc. Had I kept with ' Train Driver ' I would be earning far more plus as stated be in a relative secure role.

For now the RMT and all other unions linked to rail need to quietly accept the situation.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Theoretical question.... if the RMT were to ballot for national strike action and a majority of members vote for it.... how many members who didn’t vote for it (and genuinely fear for their jobs) would refuse to down-tools and cross the picket line?

 

[Bald Rick]

Recently on ScotRail a ballot on not receiving a pay rise returned a no vote.

Strictly speaking it didn’t - it was a narrow ‘yes’ vote, but with a low turnout it didn’t pass the threshold required for the action to be legal (40%+ of all possible voters require to vote for such action). Nevertheless, a good job a strike wasn’t called.

Theoretical question.... if the RMT were to ballot for national strike action and a majority of members vote for it.... how many members who didn’t vote for it (and genuinely fear for their jobs) would refuse to down-tools and cross the picket line?

The RMT can’t ballot for national strike action. They can ballot for action with each employer, and they could co-ordinate it such that it looked like a national action, but each individual ballot would stand on its own. For example, if you added up all the votes from all the separate ballots and there was a majority for a strike, but some TOCs voted no, then the latter TOCs would not go on strike.