RMT order members not to load railcard discounts?

[Mawkie]

Instead now you have to wait 2 months for TfL to reply to an email

Or go online and resolve it themselves immediately.

I'm sure that if ARL approached RMT and said that they wanted to train staff to apply discounts there would be no objection.

What percentage of London Overground TVMs are capable of applying discounts even if there are trained staff available? If it's less than 100%, then I could understand why LO wouldn't advertise that option (and pay to train staff). It just leads to more passenger confusion.

That rather underestimates the relationship between unions and management in TfL.

I agree generally with this in the widest sense!

However I didn't really understand what relationship an ARL union Rep would have with TfL. Realistically, the ARL RMT members, Reps, or Branch have no relationship with TfL at all do they?

 

[baza585]

The usual non-story from the right wing press.

The actual headline should read: staff not doing what company isn't asking them to do anyway.

It's not a non-story for those passengers who can't access the discounts they have paid for when buying a Railcard!

Given the likelihood of downward pressure on staff numbers, this instruction does seem very short term thinking on the part of RMT. Station staff helping passengers to get their discounts would be very difficult for TfL to cut. Unless TfL don't want to grant the discounts............

 

[357]

This has been an issue for at least ten years - Overground and Elizabeth Line stations don't (or didn't) do it.

It seems that some staff have been using the feature despite being told not to.

When I was involved, everyone said that the stations should be able to do it but it was a TfL directive that only tube stations should do it, despite the option being there on all ticket office machines.

 

[3rd rail land]

I'm sure that if ARL approached RMT and said that they wanted to train staff to apply discounts there would be no objection.

For a suitable uplift in wages I suspect would be the answer from RMT.

 

[Haywain]

For a suitable uplift in wages I suspect would be the answer from RMT.

There would probably also be a defined amount of training time required.

 

[Watershed]

What percentage of London Overground TVMs are capable of applying discounts even if there are trained staff available?

This seems a very weak argument to me. They could just provide a list of stations where it's possible, just the same as RSTL do with Elizabeth line stations where non-safeguarded staff can get their Priv National Rail discount applied. (Allegedly, in theory, if all the planets align).

 

[Mawkie]

It's not a non-story for those passengers who can't access the discounts they have paid for when buying a Railcard!

Given the likelihood of downward pressure on staff numbers, this instruction does seem very short term thinking on the part of RMT. Station staff helping passengers to get their discounts would be very difficult for TfL to cut. Unless TfL don't want to grant the discounts............

The actual story is ARL don't want their staff adding discounts (the secondary story being the RMT agree and advise members to follow the employers instructions).

The Telegraph headline wasn't "Private company limits options for adding discounts" as it doesn't fit their agenda.

 

[Haywain]

The actual story is ARL don't want their staff adding discounts (the secondary story being the RMT agree and advise members to follow the employers instructions).

As this is a right wing newspaper you've got that the wrong way round - the secondary story is that ARL haven't asked their staff to do this. From your perspective I suspect that the only things that has changed is that you can now be fairly certain that you won't get a discount loaded at an Overground station whereas previously it was little better than a possibility.

Realistically, the ARL RMT members, Reps, or Branch have no relationship with TfL at all do they?

I expect their dealings with management are strongly influenced by the way their union colleagues interact with TfL elsewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure the industry could make it easier to access the discounts they're entitled to.

If they really wanted to.........

 

[Adam Williams]

I'm sure the industry could make it easier to access the discounts they're entitled to.

If they really wanted to.........

Given that:

• I believe TfL are given privileged access to be able to retrieve back either the FPAN of a payment card (or a customer-specific Payment Account Reference) when contactless payments are made
  • (If they weren't, the Contactless travel history portal wouldn't be able to display travel journey undertaken using Apple/Google Pay)
• There is a railcard validation API provided by Rail Delivery Group which allows railcard numbers to be checked for validity
• TfL have a "new" Android-based Revenue Inspection Device (RID2) which was fully rolled out in December 2022

There is no valid reason beyond gross incompetence that Railcard discounts for contactless (indeed, in line with the deliverables set out within Project Oval, for which TfL was awarded the contract back in 2022) couldn't have been rolled out, with self-service configuration online and server-side storage of railcard<->payment card associations (either retrieved daily to the RID2 devices, or queried in real-time, depending on how much progress TfL have made on their chronically late roll-out of mobile coverage).

The current status quo being the way it's been for as long as it has shows a complete disregard for user experience. This is compounded by misleading advertisements ("Pay the same fare") and marketing that tries to push Oyster users into using contactless, to the detriment of any loaded discounts.

Hell, it's only this year that the POMs have gained the ability to do anything beyond chip & pin payment for Oyster top-ups, I think?

 

[crablab]

I believe TfL are given privileged access to be able to retrieve back either the FPAN of a payment card (or a customer-specific Payment Account Reference) when contactless payments are made

The former. There is an API which issuers can use to associate a DPAN with a PAN, and list active DPANs for a given PAN.
TfL (and it seems some other transport merchants - eg. Ticketer) can use something similar, but I don't know what it looks like in practice.

 

[Adam Williams]

The former. There is an API which issuers can use to associate a DPAN with a PAN, and list active DPANs for a given PAN.
TfL (and it seems some other transport merchants - eg. Ticketer) can use something similar, but I don't know what it looks like in practice.

Thanks for confirming!

 

[talldave]

There would probably also be a defined amount of training time required.

Must be at least 5-10 minutes.

 

[Haywain]

Must be at least 5-10 minutes.

You might think so, but I doubt RMT would agree.

 

[akm]

There is no valid reason beyond gross incompetence

Yes, surely the only possibly reason for an organisation not doing something that it technically possibly could is "gross incompetence"...

 

[WestAnglian]

Hence why paper one day travelcards remain popular for one day visits to London since the discounts are added at the buying stage.

Paper ODTCs remain popular for visitors to London because many have arrived by train and TfL can't read Aztec codes. Paper is a necessity, not a choice.

Genuine question: some are seeing this as a disbenefit of the move away from paper, but can you add a Railcard to a paper ticket bought on TfL?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Genuine question: some are seeing this as a disbenefit of the move away from paper, but can you add a Railcard to a paper ticket bought on TfL?

Many other ticket buying sites are available. You just input the Railcard and select Travelcard.

 

[Joe Paxton]

There is no valid reason beyond gross incompetence [...]

Yes, surely the only possibly reason for an organisation not doing something that it technically possibly could is "gross incompetence"...

Quite. As I imagine @Adam Williams knows only too well from his work in another domain (similar but not the same), matters aren't always necessarily quite as simple or straightforward as one might initially think. Dare I suggest that such a blanket statement from such an esteemed poster as himself is perhaps a little unbecoming...?

For clarity I've no inside take on this matter, and also I quite agree Railcard discounts need to come to contactless. Like others I can take guess at some of the potential issues there might be.

I do just want to say I think reference to the slow roll out of mobile coverage on the subterranean LU network is a little cavalier - LU/TfL has long been open to operators fitting tunnels and stations for coverage, but it's a very challenging environment down there and they are understandably uncompromising in their stance on safety regarding equipment fitted (the 1987 KXSP fire casts a very long memory over the organisation - and rightly so).

Genuine question: some are seeing this as a disbenefit of the move away from paper, but can you add a Railcard to a paper ticket bought on TfL?

Yes - LU POMs (aka TVMs) offer Railcard discounts.

 

[Adam Williams]

Yes, surely the only possibly reason for an organisation not doing something that it technically possibly could is "gross incompetence"...

"Technically possibly could", and committed to doing by bidding for Oval, you mean?

Quite. As I imagine @Adam Williams knows only too well from his work in another domain (similar but not the same), matters aren't always necessarily quite as simple or straightforward as one might initially think. Dare I suggest that such a blanket statement from such an esteemed poster as himself is perhaps a little unbecoming...?

I'm happy to evaluate technical arguments as to why it's not as simple as I've described. Indeed, I can think of a few limitations with what I've proposed (mostly around obscure Railcards), but it'd be a start that worked for a good majority of passengers which is what the aim should be, at least initially. I think it's fair to ask why no progress has been made when substantial amounts of public money are going towards this organisation. It's not just Railcards, there was a period where staff weren't able to get the discount flag set on their Oyster cards properly either. It's poor. There are non-technical factors for sure, but I'd argue some of these non-technical factors are also indicative of questionable historical procurement practice.

I'm pretty tired of seeing TfL lauded as some sort of uniquely innovative authority that blessed us with Oyster 22 years ago and contactless 13 years ago so we can't criticise them or identify clear opportunities for long overdue improvements anymore. Londoners and passengers transiting London deserve better than that.

It's not just discount associations or mobile coverage either, it's the information security issues (including getting pwned by a 17 year old kid, continuing to use SMS-based multifactor auth when established security best practice has considered it harmful for the best part of a decade) as well.

 

[MikeWh]

I wouldn’t stake my life on ticket stops doing it. Some of the ones who are even aware they can do it, simply won’t because they don’t get paid to do it.

My understanding is that they are allowed to insist on £5 topup being added at the same time. If they still refuse then I'd encourage people to report them to TfL.

 

[Sonic1234]

My understanding is that they are allowed to insist on £5 topup being added at the same time. If they still refuse then I'd encourage people to report them to TfL.

More likely they won't understand what you're asking them to do, or know anything about discounts and railcards. Or try to sell you an Oyster card when you say "railcard."

 

[redreni]

My understanding is that they are allowed to insist on £5 topup being added at the same time. If they still refuse then I'd encourage people to report them to TfL.

I suppose that's fair, although my observation would be that every year, oyster ticket stops disappear because the shop owner considers it more trouble than it's worth. I'm sure there was a time when shopkeepers would have kept their oyster machines even if they weren't making any money from them directly, because of the footfall they generated, but I don't think that's necessarily the case any more. So consider the possibility that reporting them to TfL may result in them simply sending their oyster equipment back and having nothing more to do with it.

I do think it's unfortunate the discount can't be set at National Rail stations, including but not limited to Overground and Elizabeth Line. As has been pointed out, making it Underground only leaves south London largely unserved. TfL should certainly mitigate this by offering the service at its own National Rail stations, even if there are obstacles to allowing other TOCs' staff to set the discounts.

Alternatively, make the issue go away by allowing the discounts to be set online and applied to the Oyster / Contactless account rather than to the card itself.

 

[MotCO]

Alternatively, make the issue go away by allowing the discounts to be set online and applied to the Oyster / Contactless account rather than to the card itself.

Or give everyone a 33% discount by reducing ticket prices. Given that there are so many railcards, what proportion of fares are not discounted?

 

[Haywain]

Given that there are so many railcards, what proportion of fares are not discounted?

Most fares are paid by contactless card, not Oyster, and these both vastly outnumber paper tickets. Therefore the proportion of discounted tickets is really rather small.

 

[Snow1964]

I have no problem with RMT telling members not to do anything that isn't in their job description.

The job description would be rather long if it listed out every task, rather than being indicative.

And to be honest most union officials wouldn't want it enforced to exact description (and it works both ways if it is prescriptive), just imagine if it said wear uniform properly, then someone has tie crooked so breach of contract....

 

[baza585]

The job description would be rather long if it listed out every task, rather than being indicative.

And to be honest most union officials wouldn't want it enforced to exact description (and it works both ways if it is prescriptive), just imagine if it said wear uniform properly, then someone has tie crooked so breach of contract....

Agreed. However if a task becomes a major activity within the job then the job description should be amended to reflect this.

Personally I think RMT are being quite short sighted in the approach to this.

In the meantime passengers are suffering yet again.

 

[Krokodil]

Personally I think RMT are being quite short sighted in the approach to this.

What are RMT supposed to do? The operator doesn't want staff doing it.

 

[baza585]

What are RMT supposed to do? The operator doesn't want staff doing it.

If I were RMT, I would want staff enabling passengers to get the discounts they have paid for.

In my view this makes it harder for the employer/DfT to reduce staff numbers, which most folk expect to come under pressure in the future.

Being able to show RMT on the side of the passenger surely wouldn't hurt their public image either.

 

[redreni]

If I were RMT, I would want staff enabling passengers to get the discounts they have paid for.

In my view this makes it harder for the employer/DfT to reduce staff numbers, which most folk expect to come under pressure in the future.

Being able to show RMT on the side of the passenger surely wouldn't hurt their public image either.

No competent trade union rep, faced with cases of members getting in disciplinary trouble for making mistakes when performing a task the employer hasn't trained them to do and doesn't want them to do, could do anything in the short term except defend those members who are in trouble as best he can, and advise all his members who are in a similar position not to do that particular task.

The union could certainly say to the employer that passengers want this service and the union is keen for its London Overground members to deliver it, but it is a case of training people, whatever anybody thinks. Currently, staff are making errors and getting I'm trouble for it, so it would be grossly irresponsible for union leaders to agree to the task being added to job descriptions without making sure staff had the capacity and knowledge to carry out the task correctly. It is not entirely within the union's gift to make any of this happen.

 

[Sonic1234]

Or give everyone a 33% discount by reducing ticket prices. Given that there are so many railcards, what proportion of fares are not discounted?

TfL is one case where this isn't true. The railway is often the only option of making the sort of journeys TfL provide.

I've been on long distance trains (GWR) where everyone in the carriage has had a railcard (yes, actually has the card, not trying it on) - raises the question if the non-discounted fares are too high, or do people 31-59 have different travel needs?