ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[robbeech]

I have no reason to believe anything has changed so I suspect the timetable will be the same, if that means no service I’m afraid that is how it will be.

 

[Highlandspring]

What's the chance of a train from Inverness to Aberdeen next Sunday?

The industrial action is continuing for at least another 5 weeks.

 

[Robertj21a]

The industrial action is continuing for at least another 5 weeks.

Excellent, more reason to use the car.

 

[snookertam]

Has there been any explanation why Scotrail aren’t running the DOO Glasgow area services? Seems pretty odd, not to mention pretty convenient for an operator believed to be in financial difficulty.

Same here. I honestly have doubts as to the long term future of much (all?) of the railways. Just reading on these forums about how much they cost to run versus the drop in use and forecast lack of recovery must have governments questioning the subsidies involved.

I think we’re seeing the answer to this with nationalisation. You might see some recasting of timetables to adapt to increased home working, eg suburban routes losing their peak additionals with more consistent frequency across the day, and there will need to be some effort to tempt passengers back, but there will still be a place for the railway.

Even last Saturday daytime the Neilston line was the busiest I’d seen it since before the pandemic.

 

[Watershed]

Has there been any explanation why Scotrail aren’t running the DOO Glasgow area services? Seems pretty odd, not to mention pretty convenient for an operator believed to be in financial difficulty.

The Strathclyde Manning Agreement dictates that they must roster a second member of staff on all DOO services. If that rostered member of staff then doesn't appear, the train can still run. But if (as in this case), there are no Ticket Examiners available for rostering, you have a problem.

Instead they are using management staff, who are volunteering to come in. Obviously there are nowhere near enough trained management staff to cover all trains, hence it is a skeleton service.

 

[Starmill]

Has there been any explanation why Scotrail aren’t running the DOO Glasgow area services? Seems pretty odd, not to mention pretty convenient for an operator believed to be in financial difficulty.

As has been pointed out above, a small handful of such services are running.

 

[snookertam]

Thanks for the replies - so it’s in connection with having to abide by rostering agreements effectively?

Interesting, as I know of one service a few years back that was not rostered to have a ticket examiner at all. It might have been an oversight that both train planning and the union representatives had missed perhaps.

The Strathclyde Manning Agreement dictates that they must roster a second member of staff on all DOO services. If that rostered member of staff then doesn't appear, the train can still run. But if (as in this case), there are no Ticket Examiners available for rostering, you have a problem.

Instead they are using management staff, who are volunteering to come in. Obviously there are nowhere near enough trained management staff to cover all trains, hence it is a skeleton service.

However I would question this - at no stage in the past have scotrail cancelled services due to shortages of ticket examiners, so what has changed?

 

[Starmill]

However I would question this - at no stage in the past have scotrail cancelled services due to shortages of ticket examiners, so what has changed?

Presumably that shortage was that the rostered ticket examiner was unavailable?

 

[williamn]

I've an advance ticket booked through LNER next Sunday, Glasgow - London (as West Coast closed). Now I guess I'll have to book a coach for the Glasgow-Edinburgh segment. What are the chances of getting a partial refund of what is quite an expensive train ticket? (£80), esp given I have to layout for the coach now.

 

[InOban]

Won't there be XC services between GLC and Edinburgh?

 

[Watershed]

I've an advance ticket booked through LNER next Sunday, Glasgow - London (as West Coast closed). Now I guess I'll have to book a coach for the Glasgow-Edinburgh segment. What are the chances of getting a partial refund of what is quite an expensive train ticket? (£80), esp given I have to layout for the coach now.

It's unclear that you have the right to use the ticket from Edinburgh and get a partial refund.

You are, however, entitled to reimbursement of your out of pocket expenses if the industrial action means you cannot otherwise get from Glasgow to Edinburgh (assuming you don't want to return the ticket for a full refund).

To be honest, given you're going to be in a coach no matter what, I would go with a full refund and rebook to travel via Carlisle. The rail replacement coach is relatively fast and obviously connects well at Carlisle. Alternatively there are still a few Avanti trains operating between Glasgow and Carlisle, diverting via Kilmarnock and Dumfries (non-stop).

Won't there be XC services between GLC and Edinburgh?

There are two trains from Glasgow in the late evening - both far too late to make anything other than the sleeper from Edinburgh!

 

[snookertam]

Presumably that shortage was that the rostered ticket examiner was unavailable?

I’m not talking about one particular shortage. At no stage has it been the case that ScotRail have had to cancel services due to no ticket examiner being rostered on the diagram. It’s happened plenty of times for conductors, where an entire diagram couldn’t be covered, but not with ticket examiners.

If we’re saying that this is just chance that on many occasions one grade went unrestored and the other did not, then fair enough, but it seems like a very big slice of luck given that driver, conductor and station staff turns have at various times gone completely uncovered.

It just seems odd that if this was always the case that an unrostered TE turn meant cancellations that it’s never happened before now.

 

[Watershed]

I’m not talking about one particular shortage. At no stage has it been the case that ScotRail have had to cancel services due to no ticket examiner being rostered on the diagram. It’s happened plenty of times for conductors, where an entire diagram couldn’t be covered, but not with ticket examiners.

If we’re saying that this is just chance that on many occasions one grade went unrestored and the other did not, then fair enough, but it seems like a very big slice of luck given that driver, conductor and station staff turns have at various times gone completely uncovered.

It just seems odd that if this was always the case that an unrostered TE turn meant cancellations that it’s never happened before now.

There is a crucial distinction between rosterering and turning up.

The SMA requires a TE to be rostered, i.e. for someone to be diagrammed on the train, and for that diagram to be allocated to someone as part of a link.

If that person doesn't turn up due to disruption - for example sickness or previous workings being late - then the train can still run.

However this doesn't allow Scotrail to run DOO trains where no TE at all is rostered, as is the case during this industrial action. The TEs are withdrawing their labour so, by definition, it is impossible to roster them onto the trains.

 

[snookertam]

There is a crucial distinction between rosterering and turning up.

The SMA requires a TE to be rostered, i.e. for someone to be diagrammed on the train, and for that diagram to be allocated to someone as part of a link.

If that person doesn't turn up due to disruption - for example sickness or previous workings being late - then the train can still run.

However this doesn't allow Scotrail to run DOO trains where no TE at all is rostered, as is the case during this industrial action. The TEs are withdrawing their labour so, by definition, it is impossible to roster them onto the trains.

I appreciate that this is the distinction being drawn with the responses, but what I was arguing is that disruption of some degree has occurred in the past when other grades (ie driver, Conductor) have not been rostered (not just not turned up, although the outcome is the same if no replacement), yet no such disruption has occurred in the past where a TE has not been rostered.

Perhaps the scenario where a TE diagram did not get rostered hasn’t occurred over all those years where it did happen for other grades, which is an incredible stroke of luck, or perhaps ScotRail have turned a blind eye to this requirement until now.

There was until recently no operational instruction to cancel any DOO service if a revenue team manager (no idea if they still have them, but when they did) reported a TE turn unable to be covered. So, why we only now see mass cancellations of ScotRail DOO services doesn’t make any sense for the above reasons.

I’m not doubting that what yourself or starmill are saying in regards the Strathclyde Manning Agreement by the way, but it sounds likely that this requirement hasn’t been adhered to in years gone by. Only now for some reason it is, and I’d be interested in the reason.

 

[Watershed]

I appreciate that this is the distinction being drawn with the responses, but what I was arguing is that disruption of some degree has occurred in the past when other grades (ie driver, Conductor) have not been rostered (not just not turned up, although the outcome is the same if no replacement), yet no such disruption has occurred in the past where a TE has not been rostered.

Perhaps the scenario where a TE diagram did not get rostered hasn’t occurred over all those years where it did happen for other grades, which is an incredible stroke of luck, or perhaps ScotRail have turned a blind eye to this requirement until now.

There was until recently no operational instruction to cancel any DOO service if a revenue team manager (no idea if they still have them, but when they did) reported a TE turn unable to be covered. So, why we only now see mass cancellations of ScotRail DOO services doesn’t make any sense for the above reasons.

I’m not doubting that what yourself or starmill are saying in regards the Strathclyde Manning Agreement by the way, but it sounds likely that this requirement hasn’t been adhered to in years gone by. Only now for some reason it is, and I’d be interested in the reason.

I don't have personal involvement with it so I can't comment on whether it's always been fastidiously kept to.

I suspect that the unions will be checking very carefully to ensure that the agreement is kept to during the current circumstances, to prevent it being used as a 'back door' into the trains starting to run single manned on a routine basis.

 

[williamn]

It's unclear that you have the right to use the ticket from Edinburgh and get a partial refund.

You are, however, entitled to reimbursement of your out of pocket expenses if the industrial action means you cannot otherwise get from Glasgow to Edinburgh (assuming you don't want to return the ticket for a full refund).

To be honest, given you're going to be in a coach no matter what, I would go with a full refund and rebook to travel via Carlisle. The rail replacement coach is relatively fast and obviously connects well at Carlisle. Alternatively there are still a few Avanti trains operating between Glasgow and Carlisle, diverting via Kilmarnock and Dumfries (non-stop).


There are two trains from Glasgow in the late evening - both far too late to make anything other than the sleeper from Edinburgh!

Thanks for the helpful reply - its a good point that I will now be taking a coach anyway, so could have gone on the WCML after all. Unfortunately zero availability for any advance fares, so its £108 cheapest one way now standard class! Guess I'll stick to LNER...

Who do I seek reimbursement from? Scotrail whose services are impacted or LNER who sold the ticket?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the helpful reply - its a good point that I will now be taking a coach anyway, so could have gone on the WCML after all. Unfortunately zero availability for any advance fares, so its £108 cheapest one way now standard class! Guess I'll stick to LNER...

Who do I seek reimbursement from? Scotrail whose services are impacted or LNER who sold the ticket?

There's a slight saving to be made by splitting (e.g. at Oxenholme), but yes unfortunately it's going to be over £100 to travel WCML unless you take an even slower route (e.g. via Manchester or changing at Crewe onto WMT).

It's Scotrail you need to claim from - their trains were in the industry timetable data when you booked (and indeed still are!), so LNER have done nothing wrong. You would only contact LNER if you wanted to return the ticket for a refund.

I don't imagine they'll be particularly receptive to any claim, but there are no exceptions in the NRCoT (or consumer law, for that matter) entitling them to burden you with the costs of their industrial dispute.

 

[syorksdeano]

Just something I've noticed.

Given that ScotRail are refusing to negotiate anything and they know that it will be the same service as the previous 2 Sundays, how come they haven't removed trains from the system already?

I only ask because I vaguely remember when Northern were on strike, that when everything was resolved they were still unable to operate that weekend service as it was short notice.

 

[Starmill]

I don't imagine they'll be particularly receptive to any claim, but there are no exceptions in the NRCoT (or consumer law, for that matter) entitling them to burden you with the costs of their industrial dispute.

Fortunately if the customer bought a ticket from LNER this won't be an issue; I'm sure LNER will just refund the ticket if it remains unused as a result of the train not running (whether that's caused by industrial action or anything else).

 

[Watershed]

Just something I've noticed.

Given that ScotRail are refusing to negotiate anything and they know that it will be the same service as the previous 2 Sundays, how come they haven't removed trains from the system already?

I only ask because I vaguely remember when Northern were on strike, that when everything was resolved they were still unable to operate that weekend service as it was short notice.

There are a variety of possible reasons but the most likely would be that they don't want to remove all the trains yet, only for the industrial action to be resolved at the last moment.

 

[92002]

I've an advance ticket booked through LNER next Sunday, Glasgow - London (as West Coast closed). Now I guess I'll have to book a coach for the Glasgow-Edinburgh segment. What are the chances of getting a partial refund of what is quite an expensive train ticket? (£80), esp given I have to layout for the coach now.

Perhaps the question should be will the Edinburgh to London train be running. Given the Azuma problems.

 

[robbeech]

It's Scotrail you need to claim from - their trains were in the industry timetable data when you booked (and indeed still are!), so LNER have done nothing wrong. You would only contact LNER if you wanted to return the ticket for a refund.

I don't imagine they'll be particularly receptive to any claim, but there are no exceptions in the NRCoT (or consumer law, for that matter) entitling them to burden you with the costs of their industrial dispute.

Whilst this is correct, legally speaking, there are ongoing threads on this forum and a plethora of individual cases both here and on social media to suggest that many retailers will be all too happy to reject your refund claim if they change the timetable between booking and travel, on the grounds that the train doesn't exist so therefore they can't check the running data. It sounds even more absurd when you write it down doesn't it.

 

[Mag_seven]

OK folks can we stick to the topic under discussion which is a dispute about pay.

Lets not go down the DOO rabbit hole please as it is off topic for this thread and we have done it to death over the years in other threads.

Thanks

 

[williamn]

urgh, I suspect it'll be too much work to try and reclaim the £8.50 for my coach fare. As for Edinburgh-London it seems like the majority of LNER services are running, so fingers crossed...

 

[Leisurefirst]

Was blissfully unaware of this until I went to book a Glasgow to King's Cross via Edinburgh ticket on LNER for a forthcoming Sunday (due to Avanti only having expensive advance tickets available for First Class only).
The Scotrail website suggests for this Sunday only trains from Glasgow as far as Airdrie yet RTT show services ran from Low Level to Edinburgh last Sunday?
Does it vary every week?
I am very anxious about what will happen if I can't get from Glasgow to Edinburgh as I will be with a vulnerable person with luggage.
Any help most appreciated please.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Was blissfully unaware of this until I went to book a Glasgow to King's Cross via Edinburgh ticket on LNER for a forthcoming Sunday (due to Avanti only having expensive advance tickets available for First Class only).
The Scotrail website suggests for this Sunday only trains from Glasgow as far as Airdrie yet RTT show services ran from Low Level to Edinburgh last Sunday?
Does it vary every week?
I am very anxious about what will happen if I can't get from Glasgow to Edinburgh as I will be with a vulnerable person with luggage.
Any help most appreciated please.

The ticket examiners are going on strike from this Sunday. Hence why there will be a slightly reduced and earlier finish on the DOO routes.

An alternative is Citylink's 900, which is every 15 minutes from Buchanan Bus Station. Takes about 90 minutes and has luggage space.

 

[Leisurefirst]

The ticket examiners are going on strike from this Sunday. Hence why there will be a slightly reduced and earlier finish on the DOO routes.

An alternative is Citylink's 900, which is every 15 minutes from Buchanan Bus Station. Takes about 90 minutes and has luggage space.

Ah, thank you.
Sounds like this could be a bit of a nightmare.
We would probably have to be carried on a later LNER service (we can't leave any earlier).
I hope they would accomodate us as we would have nowhere to stay.
I can only hope we might have some GLQ to EDB services on the day by then.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Ah, thank you.
Sounds like this could be a bit of a nightmare.
We would probably have to be carried on a later LNER service (we can't leave any earlier).
I hope they would accomodate us as we would have nowhere to stay.
I can only hope we might have some GLQ to EDB services on the day by then.

What time is your LNER service? It might be worth speaking to Customer Service and see if they can rebook you because of the Scotrail strikes. The 900 goes to every 15 minutes from 7:30am.

It's not looking likely that there will be some services on the Sunday, both sides aren't backing down so this is probably going to go on for a while.

 

[Leisurefirst]

What time is your LNER service? It might be worth speaking to Customer Service and see if they can rebook you because of the Scotrail strikes. The 900 goes to every 15 minutes from 7:30am.

It's not looking likely that there will be some services on the Sunday, both sides aren't backing down so this is probably going to go on for a while.

Cheers, I haven't actually booked yet, was just about to when the warning came up on the site.
It's not until a few weeks time on the 16.20 from EDB so there are a few services after.

The choice between £46.20 for two with a 2T railcard via the ECML or £143.20 on the WCML (even though the fares only got released yesterday - there's only First Class advances for £208.50?) means I'll probably take the chance.

Where would I stand trying to claim the coach fares back? If I was delayed enough to claim Delay Repay I would probably leave it at that but otherwise (if we managed to catch the scheduled LNER train) would I have a case?

 

[92002]

Cheers, I haven't actually booked yet, was just about to when the warning came up on the site.
It's not until a few weeks time on the 16.20 from EDB so there are a few services after.

The choice between £46.20 for two with a 2T railcard via the ECML or £143.20 on the WCML (even though the fares only got released yesterday - there's only First Class advances for £208.50?) means I'll probably take the chance.

Where would I stand trying to claim the coach fares back? If I was delayed enough to claim Delay Repay I would probably leave it at that but otherwise (if we managed to catch the scheduled LNER train) would I have a case?

Would think you would need to pay the City link fare. Remember to leave earlier since it takes longer. Then try for an LNER refund. If it was a Scotrail train then it would be a Scotrail refund. Depends who you buy your ticket from.

Since there's only one train from Glasgow to LNER destinations and it leaves early morning and doesn't run on a Sunday it probably would be a ScotRail refund for the bus.

If it's this weekend trains are very busy. So probably why fares are expensive. The Glasgow to Edinburgh doesn't run this Monday with work at Carstairs taking place. It starts from Edinburgh. Some cross Country trains still running via Shotts.

Other weekends from now on will also be getting expensive with holidays in Scotland starting shortly. So would book now.