RMT sets out talks ‘road map’ as rail services hit by fresh strike

[yorksrob]

I feel like there would be a very easy win for the labour party here. Small rise, and do something about Sunday coverage. Enables them to have a service win at a cheap price, and really show that a lot of these problems have been caused by silly ideology from the hard right of the Tory party

Yes, this is my thinking. It really doesn't look like there would need to be much change to reach a settlement, assuming unrealistic changes to working conditions were dropped.

 

[robert thomas]

Furlough would suggest otherwise.


If the Conservatives wanted to run the railway into the ground then covid was the ideal opportunity, instead they supported the railway.

It was nothing to do with supporting the railway but ensuring that NHS staff could get to work. They've been using it as a stick with which to bash the railway ever since.

 

[Robcuk]

Furlough would suggest otherwise.


If the Conservatives wanted to run the railway into the ground then covid was the ideal opportunity, instead they supported the railway.

I'd say they supported is as it was too hard to work out what to do with it if they shut it down. Where would all those trains be stored?

I remember reading company results with management congratulating themselves on the performance - easy to run a good service when no one is on the trains

You could have got everyone a taxi during COVID and it would have been cheaper!!

 

[nanstallon]

The problem I find with the RMT is that the second things don't go there way, they are ready and waiting to go on strike. Now they've been backed into the corner by the government & RDG, Passengers are fed up, staff are fed up and the RMT realise it's not working. If they had tried harder, got the public and media on side and then after months said "sorry we've tried but striking is a final resort" then maybe the outcome would be different.

All they've done is exactly what the government hoped.

Yes, the RMT have given out an image over the past 10 or so years as being a ruthless union getting all it can for its members and the public can get stuffed. During the long running dispute about who should open the doors, a lot of commuters relying on services into London from the south ended up having to move house to somewhere with a reliable commuter service, or simply lost their jobs because they couldn't rely on getting to work on time. You can say that a union only has duties to its members, but then don't be surprised if the public don't back you when you want their support.

I have very little time for the present government, but if they are against pouring more and more taxpayers money into the railways when the TOCs and the unions seem incapable of running the show properly, then I tend to take the government's side for once. A broken clock is right twice a day!

 

[scouseyb123]

The RDG has invited RMT to continue discussions and explore options next week.

What’s your source for this?

 

[Envy123]

During the long running dispute about who should open the doors, a lot of commuters relying on services into London from the south ended up having to move house to somewhere with a reliable commuter service.

I am one of those people. Thameslink from Huntingdon has been an utter joke and my mother has been constantly late for work. We only moved to Peterborough for the more reliable service by LNER.

I had thought of moving to the traditional commuter belt when I would have more income, but given how reliable LNER proved itself, I don't want to.

 

[vikingdriver]

What’s your source for this?

It's up on the RMT Twitter.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, the RMT have given out an image over the past 10 or so years as being a ruthless union getting all it can for its members and the public can get stuffed. During the long running dispute about who should open the doors, a lot of commuters relying on services into London from the south ended up having to move house to somewhere with a reliable commuter service, or simply lost their jobs because they couldn't rely on getting to work on time. You can say that a union only has duties to its members, but then don't be surprised if the public don't back you when you want their support.

I have very little time for the present government, but if they are against pouring more and more taxpayers money into the railways when the TOCs and the unions seem incapable of running the show properly, then I tend to take the government's side for once. A broken clock is right twice a day!

I've been weary of strikes ever since the long running Northern rail dispute. However if the T&C proposals are as (ahem) well considered and thought out as the ticket office proposals, it doesn't surprise me that the unions are up in arms.

It seems that the RMT has put forward a proposal that looks reasonable. Will the TOC's (Government) move on it.

 

[RT4038]

Those Ts & Cs come with the responsibility of the job and as previously explained have often been born out of detailed investigations into serious incidents where it turned out staff were working excessive hours without sufficient rest, cutting corners instead of following laid out procedures and so on. Clerical and Management grades are unlikely to be standing in the dock and being held responsible for the deaths of passengers caused by a driver suffering from fatigue.

I don't think that is quite right. Rules may well have done, but t's & c's are a different and trying to justify some of them on this basis is plain wrong.

There has to be a balance between work and home life. Why should someone's day off be changed with a few days' notice? Sounds like you expect rail workers to sell their soul to the company and their families should just put up with it. I wonder if M-F office staff would be happy to be told they had to work next weekend and have Tuesday and Wednesday off instead?

Safety critical staff in the UK have Ts & Cs such as 12 hours minimum rest between duties as a result of recommendations written in reports after major incidents resulting in loss of life. These rules are in place for a reason. If you are happy for those rules to be relaxed and accept the resulting increase in safety of the line incidents then that is a dangerous route to take.

I don't think anybody is suggesting a relaxation of the 12hr minimum rest rule are they? The rest is just trotting out the safety card when it is really a balance of work and home life issue.

There does have to be a balance between work and home life, but that is not necessarily where it is now. Transport operations staff are in a time and place critical industry - people who seriously value office hours or very predictable hours are just not for the operating side of Transport.

Agreements need to be reached for flexibility (and that be reasonably paid for) and that is where negotiations should be going.

 

[baz962]

I don't think that is quite right. Rules may well have done, but t's & c's are a different and trying to justify some of them on this basis is plain wrong.


I don't think anybody is suggesting a relaxation of the 12hr minimum rest rule are they? The rest is just trotting out the safety card when it is really a balance of work and home life issue.

There does have to be a balance between work and home life, but that is not necessarily where it is now. Transport operations staff are in a time and place critical industry - people who seriously value office hours or very predictable hours are just not for the operating side of Transport.

Agreements need to be reached for flexibility (and that be reasonably paid for) and that is where negotiations should be going.

I'm going to ask you a slightly different question. Different tocs have a big disparity in pay .Some tocs have a three hour movement off spare and others twelve hours. The one's with twelve hours are between 10k and 20k more than the rest. So how do you solve that issue. Some tocs are struggling to retain drivers and many stay for better conditions. If the conditions were the same but with a massive gap in pay , how would you solve this.

 

[eldomtom2]

There does have to be a balance between work and home life, but that is not necessarily where it is now. Transport operations staff are in a time and place critical industry - people who seriously value office hours or very predictable hours are just not for the operating side of Transport.

"More flexible" hours could have a serious impact on the railway's ability to attract and retain staff - look at the US, where hours are extremely "flexible", pretty much all operating staff say "don't work for the railroad", and the railroads are all having trouble attracting and retaining employees.

 

[185]

Time to end this fiasco. Pull the plug, stop the subsidies and what's left of the industry can sort itself out.

Well that makes no sense. It wouldn't need much if any subsidy if the Tories hadn't created this huge financial mess in 1995.

This is like that Labour ULEZ. Blame that nasty evil Labour mayor Khaaaan*
*oh, err yeah it was a Tory transport secretary who signed it into law

Should be pulling the plug on the plonker in number 10.

 

[WAB]

If they trim back the most unreasonable changes to Ts&Cs but kept some changes and the existing pay offer, would the RMT accept it AND not enter another dispute in a few months time?

More and more passengers travel on strike days as they have become routine.

 

[800001]

What’s your source for this?

The director of a TOC who has just sent an email to all members of staff!!

 

[northwichcat]

Then there's a problem with your employer, they are working you too many hours by the sounds of it. Isn't it illegal to compel employees to work more than a 40-hour week; wasn't that one of Blair's main successes?

No it certainly isn't illegal to work more than 40 hours per week. There was an EU directive introduced when Cameron was PM relating to a 48 hour week but he got an opt-out clause added to it for the UK, so your employer can't make you work more than an average of over 48 hours per week unless the employee opts out. Even that would allow a retail worker to work 55 hours the week before Christmas and 20 in the following week.

Anyway my contracted hours have always been either 37.5 or 40. Whether working some additional time beyond that incurs additional payment varies.

 

[scouseyb123]

The director of a TOC who has just sent an email to all members of staff!!

If you could send me a screenshot that would be great, thankyou

 

[12LDA28C]

I don't think that is quite right. Rules may well have done, but t's & c's are a different and trying to justify some of them on this basis is plain wrong.


I don't think anybody is suggesting a relaxation of the 12hr minimum rest rule are they? The rest is just trotting out the safety card when it is really a balance of work and home life issue.

There does have to be a balance between work and home life, but that is not necessarily where it is now. Transport operations staff are in a time and place critical industry - people who seriously value office hours or very predictable hours are just not for the operating side of Transport.

Agreements need to be reached for flexibility (and that be reasonably paid for) and that is where negotiations should be going.

Maximum turn length, rest period between turns of duty, maximum continuous driving time, minimum number of Rest Days within a certain period, paid breaks, movement off spare etc all form part of rail staff Terms and Conditions and are in place to attempt to balance a degree of flexibility with a desire to minimise the effects of fatigue and are in many cases as a result of previous incidents. Some operators have 13 or 14 hours' minimum rest between turns, where is that mandated in the Rule Book?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you won't be moved from earlies to nights and your Rest Day moved at the drop of a hat, do you? How can you possibly plan any kind of family life like that?

I think it's pretty arrogant for someone who doesn't work in the rail industry to believe they have the right to pontificate on what rail staff should accept in terms of changes to Ts & Cs. Barristers, nurses and Border Force staff have also been on strike recently, do you also have opinions on what they should put up with at work under the banner of 'efficiency' and 'modernisation'?

 

[800001]

If you could send me a screenshot that would be great, thankyou

No I won’t. The email has been sent to Toc staff. I won’t be sharing it on here.
As others have mentioned RMT have also tweeted it.

 

[scouseyb123]

No I won’t. The email has been sent to Toc staff. I won’t be sharing it on here.
As others have mentioned RMT have also tweeted it.

Fair enough. Will wait for my own TOC to send

 

[1D54]

Mick Lynch RMT general secretary said: "After a week, the RDG has formally responded to our initiative to try and reach a negotiated settlement to the national dispute

 

[CC 72100]

I'm going to ask you a slightly different question. Different tocs have a big disparity in pay .Some tocs have a three hour movement off spare and others twelve hours. The one's with twelve hours are between 10k and 20k more than the rest. So how do you solve that issue. Some tocs are struggling to retain drivers and many stay for better conditions. If the conditions were the same but with a massive gap in pay , how would you solve this.

And that is why I just don't see how this dispute (for any grade) can be solved at RDG level.

How do you bring back together something that has been able to sprout in many different directions over the last 30 years?

 

[Dan G]

It's been proposed that a week of Spare shifts will have the ability to be moved to the opposite shift and a Rest Day moved at short notice, to cover Annual Leave and suchlike, in the name of 'flexibility'.
So someone could be rostered a week of AM spare next week with a RD Saturday, then a few days before, that gets changed to a week of PM shifts with a RD on Wednesday. That's what the DfT and RDG want, I haven't made it up.

What is your source for that? There's nothing like that in the published offer.

 

[12LDA28C]

What is your source for that? There's nothing like that in the published offer.

An RDG document, as published on the RMT website includes this paragraph about covering Annual Leave, sickness etc.

To assist with the coverage of holiday this may include the creation of lines of spares in the master roster. I.e. comprising a full week of spares and being subject to full movement and extension such that they can cover on a one-for-one basis the full week’s work on any uncovered line of work e.g. due to holiday, sickness, vacancy, restriction, etc taking up the associated rest day pattern accordingly.

 

[Train_manager]

An RDG document, as published on the RMT website includes this paragraph about covering Annual Leave, sickness etc.

To assist with the coverage of holiday this may include the creation of lines of spares in the master roster. I.e. comprising a full week of spares and being subject to full movement and extension such that they can cover on a one-for-one basis the full week’s work on any uncovered line of work e.g. due to holiday, sickness, vacancy, restriction, etc taking up the associated rest day pattern accordingly.

That would make a freight roster look tame!!!!

Who in the right mind would agree to that !!!!!

 

[Mcrdvr]

I am sure that the ' total ripping up and change to Terms & Conditions' are an initial negotiating position - terms and conditions cost money and can be calculated almost as much as actual pay is.

The funders of the railway deficits (i.e. Government) want changes to the terms and conditions. They don't want there to be changes for the sake of them, they wish to save money (in particular to bring conditions more in line with general practice outside the rail industry, and to increase productivity especially where there are restrictive practices), and to eliminate conditions and restrictive practices which impede the efficient and reliable operation of the railway, for the future.

Are railway staff trying to act like King Canute and holding back the tide of such changes which have already engulfed most other industries in one way or another ? Do they really think that Railway terms and conditions are going to be a taxpayer funded outlier for ever? No, they are going to be circumvented or plain eliminated. So how about a road map (ironic that it is described as a road map rather than rail....) breaking the deadlock by embracing the changes, costing these up and negotiating the best pay and conditions deal possible? Everyone, on both sides, has their price. Instead of all this negativity of resistance , go for positivity. Yes, it is going to change the job - to many this will be anathema but look what happened to the printers and miners and seamen when they tried to defend the indefensible. Modernise and get the industry into a good position for the future. By all means pay railway staff good money, but in exchange for good productivity and flexibility to run a reliable service. Some people who cannot keep pace will leave, but others will be there to take their place. I realise that this is going to crash all sorts of cosy arrangements and work/life balances, but the current situation is not financially sustainable. The alternative is decline.

Cosy arrangements? There's sod all cosy about my shifts and at the toc I'm at....

 

[CyrusWuff]

An RDG document, as published on the RMT website includes this paragraph about covering Annual Leave, sickness etc.

To assist with the coverage of holiday this may include the creation of lines of spares in the master roster. I.e. comprising a full week of spares and being subject to full movement and extension such that they can cover on a one-for-one basis the full week’s work on any uncovered line of work e.g. due to holiday, sickness, vacancy, restriction, etc taking up the associated rest day pattern accordingly.

Already happens for Drivers, though it's more usual to have dedicated AM and PM spare weeks.

 

[12LDA28C]

Already happens for Drivers, though it's more usual to have dedicated AM and PM spare weeks.

Indeed, but is there provision for movement totally off-shift within that week and also movement of Rest Days?

 

[scrapy]

An RDG document, as published on the RMT website includes this paragraph about covering Annual Leave, sickness etc.

To assist with the coverage of holiday this may include the creation of lines of spares in the master roster. I.e. comprising a full week of spares and being subject to full movement and extension such that they can cover on a one-for-one basis the full week’s work on any uncovered line of work e.g. due to holiday, sickness, vacancy, restriction, etc taking up the associated rest day pattern accordingly

This goes totally against stated government policy for family friendly work policies and initiatives to attract more women into the industry. Who can easily arrange childcare with 3 days notice? It's hard enough when you work shifts.

No it certainly isn't illegal to work more than 40 hours per week. There was an EU directive introduced when Cameron was PM relating to a 48 hour week but he got an opt-out clause added to it for the UK, so your employer can't make you work more than an average of over 48 hours per week unless the employee opts out. Even that would allow a retail worker to work 55 hours the week before Christmas and 20 in the following week.

Anyway my contracted hours have always been either 37.5 or 40. Whether working some additional time beyond that incurs additional payment varies.

According to ACAS the working time directive does not apply to certain workers. Passenger transport workers are one of these categories as they have their own rules regarding rest and working times

 

[SJN]

Already happens for Drivers, though it's more usual to have dedicated AM and PM spare weeks.

Hi. I’m a driver and we haven’t got this at my TOC. I certainly wouldn’t vote it in though.

 

[ComUtoR]

Already happens for Drivers, though it's more usual to have dedicated AM and PM spare weeks.

It's not something I like or would wish on my worst enemy.

Indeed, but is there provision for movement totally off-shift within that week and also movement of Rest Days?

Our rest days are still sacred (Unless SC, MR or OT)