RMT vote 4 to 1 to strike over NR pay

[Whistler40145]

Indeed, like trying to juggle sawdust!

 

[DarloRich]

There are far to many people who have no understanding of unions or industrial action commenting on this thread. If you now nowt keep quiet!

Network Rails legal challenge seems to revolve around 53% of the 52% of respondents voted to strike but a higher percentage, 79% voted for action short of a strike.

no it doesn't! It will be around membership details

I take some wanted both actions as 52+79 does not equal 100.

I guess even action short of a strike would cause some disruption.

It doesn't have to equal 100! You get two choice:

1) industrial action
2) Action short of a strike

You can vote for both. See the RMT ballot

Don't get me wrong here as I only wish to make a comparison of issued statements from differing world-wide sources, not anything for or against the strike, but as one who tries to keep abreast with up-to-date worldwide news, it does seem rather amazing that you should cite this matter, as the Taleban have also said the same type of statement about continuing "action" even when peace talks are supposed to be in progress.

I hope that I have made myself clear in the emboldened parts of my posting that hopefully will be read before vast hordes descend upon this thread and accuse me of things that my carefully-worded posting sought to avoid.

Once again you are talking about things that have no bearing on the thread. I really have no idea what your point is!

NR are not talking though are they, but just focusing on this legal challenge, that is what the problem is. The unions are available and willing to talk but NR are not!

NR don't want to resolve the issues they want to push through their 'deal' regardless.

tomorrow is day 3 of ACAS talks so someone is talking!

The legal challenge is a now standard approach to any industrial action. In this case it is designed to, in my view, stop the ECRO people from striking. You might cover signal box absence but you wont cover the ECRO staff being on strike.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Once again you are talking about things that have no bearing on the thread. I really have no idea what your point is.

Both statements made comparative reference to "continuing action" during a process of trying to resolve a matter.

 

[DarloRich]

Both statements made comparative reference to "continuing action" during a process of trying to resolve a matter.

of course you continue the action until you get a deal. What would be the point otherwise?

 

[Whistler40145]

I can see both sides of the situation, one the members want better conditions that there not getting and the other side being that the fare paying public who want to travel can't, but in the end they'll get fed up of being inconvenienced and look for alternative travel methods, therefore not doing the railway any good.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

of course you continue the action until you get a deal. What would be the point otherwise?

OK, well answer me this:-

1)....The union balloted their membership which gave them a mandate to strike.

2)....Every one seems to agree the right to strike is a matter to be protected and to be used as required when the membership have voted for a strike.

2)....So why the hell don't they go on the strike that their members have voted for, rather than taking part in talks that require a threat, as you say above, to continue action during the talks.

4)....Then, after that strike, go back to the negotiating table to see how much the strike has then strengthened their negotiation/bargaining position to obtain what they require.

 

[Whistler40145]

Trouble is sometimes the view of the union leaders differs from that of it's members. I can imagine there told told to strike when some members don't really want to.

 

[DarloRich]

OK, well answer me this:-

1)....The union balloted their membership which gave them a mandate to strike.

2)....Every one seems to agree the right to strike is a matter to be protected and to be used as required when the membership have voted for a strike.

2)....So why the hell don't they go on the strike that their members have voted for, rather than taking part in talks that require a threat, as you say above, to continue action during the talks.

4)....Then, after that strike, go back to the negotiating table to see how much the strike has then strengthened their negotiation/bargaining position to obtain what they require.

Because, despite what the media and many people on this thread want us to believe, most people dont want to strike. They want a fair deal.

Surely if there is a chance of reaching that deal parties should try to do so and keep trying until the last possible minute. Only when it is clear that deal cant be reached should a strike go ahead. It has to be the ultimate option rather than the default option.

That is before you consider the PR position of refusing to talk!
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Trouble is sometimes the view of the union leaders differs from that of it's members. I can imagine there told told to strike when some members don't really want to.

For the 9 millionth time:

no one is "told" to strike. it is the result of a democratic vote of the members!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(in any event in this case the view of the negotiators/leaders differed from the members. The members/local reps on their behalf rejected the deal!)

 

[Sleepy]

Well if I was a TSSA member and it looked like NR get their way in court then I would be inclined to be "ill " over the weekend !

 

[Goldfish62]

Well if I was a TSSA member and it looked like NR get their way in court then I would be inclined to be "ill " over the weekend !

When we went on strike last year our company stated that anyone who went sick on strike days would have to produce a doctor's note or not get paid for that day. I imagine that is common practice.

 

[daikilo]

OK, well answer me this:-

1)....The union balloted their membership which gave them a mandate to strike.

2)....Every one seems to agree the right to strike is a matter to be protected and to be used as required when the membership have voted for a strike.

2)....So why the hell don't they go on the strike that their members have voted for, rather than taking part in talks that require a threat, as you say above, to continue action during the talks.

4)....Then, after that strike, go back to the negotiating table to see how much the strike has then strengthened their negotiation/bargaining position to obtain what they require.

I actually find the process quite remarkable. The union has the backing of its members as they enter negotiations. If the employer/s choose to ignore them, there will be a strike, and there will be no question who provoked it. If, on the other hand, they recognise there are issues to be addressed then maybe the strike can be averted. This is a very professional way of preparing the future.

 

[Ianigsy]

I wonder whether today's inflation figures have lobbed a metaphorical hand grenade into the negotiations- if we're heading for a period of deflation with RPI below 1% then I don't honestly see how anybody can be expected to accept RPI as their pay settlement for the next couple of years. My rule of thumb is that whatever your line of work, if you're doing your job properly (i.e not on disciplinary etc.) you should be getting the cost of living plus a percentage point or two to reflect an additional year's experience in the job.

The fact that there have been two days of talks so far suggests to me that they're going down into the detail of what's been offered and what would be acceptable to the unions, otherwise both sides would have walked away long ago- and I'm guessing that both sets of negotiators have to report to their masters at regular intervals. On a personal level, I've been a little bit conflicted as I'm planning to book a trip from Leeds to Lyon and Milan for the end of June, and I did ask myself whether I might be better flying, but Eurostar seem reasonably positive and I don't really mind getting the coach down to London if it means saving my holiday.

 

[infobleep]

NR are not talking though are they, but just focusing on this legal challenge, that is what the problem is. The unions are available and willing to talk but NR are not!

NR don't want to resolve the issues they want to push through their 'deal' regardless.

But I thought NR were talking or have they give up. If they have given up that is a poor show if you ask me.
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There are far to many people who have no understanding of unions or industrial action commenting on this thread. If you now nowt keep quiet!



no it doesn't! It will be around membership details



It doesn't have to equal 100! You get two choice:

1) industrial action
2) Action short of a strike

You can vote for both. See the RMT ballot



Once again you are talking about things that have no bearing on the thread. I really have no idea what your point is!



tomorrow is day 3 of ACAS talks so someone is talking!

The legal challenge is a now standard approach to any industrial action. In this case it is designed to, in my view, stop the ECRO people from striking. You might cover signal box absence but you wont cover the ECRO staff being on strike.

What does ECRO stand for?

 

[Elecman]

Electric Control Room Operative= ECRO

 

[martynbristow]

NR are not talking though are they, but just focusing on this legal challenge, that is what the problem is. The unions are available and willing to talk but NR are not!

NR don't want to resolve the issues they want to push through their 'deal' regardless.

Are they not capable of doing both, as it seems that negotiations are continuing.
I'm sure they have enough staff to engage in both fronts.
IF it turns out there was an error in the procedures on the part of the TSSA after the strike and the strike could have been blocked but wasn't I'd be livid as a traveller.
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I wonder whether today's inflation figures have lobbed a metaphorical hand grenade into the negotiations- if we're heading for a period of deflation with RPI below 1% then I don't honestly see how anybody can be expected to accept RPI as their pay settlement for the next couple of years. My rule of thumb is that whatever your line of work, if you're doing your job properly (i.e not on disciplinary etc.) you should be getting the cost of living plus a percentage point or two to reflect an additional year's experience in the job.

The fact that there have been two days of talks so far suggests to me that they're going down into the detail of what's been offered and what would be acceptable to the unions, otherwise both sides would have walked away long ago- and I'm guessing that both sets of negotiators have to report to their masters at regular intervals. On a personal level, I've been a little bit conflicted as I'm planning to book a trip from Leeds to Lyon and Milan for the end of June, and I did ask myself whether I might be better flying, but Eurostar seem reasonably positive and I don't really mind getting the coach down to London if it means saving my holiday.

I thought the pay deal protected against negative inflation so it becomes a bit rosier.

 

[455driver]

I can see both sides of the situation, one the members want better conditions that there not getting

Nope, they just want their conditions to remain the same, NR want to remove some parts of them.

The conditions that is.

and the other side being that the fare paying public who want to travel can't, but in the end they'll get fed up of being inconvenienced and look for alternative travel methods, therefore not doing the railway any good.

Maybe they should get onto NR to bring this dispute to an end then, this dispute is not about the money!

 

[Mojo]

Well if I was a TSSA member and it looked like NR get their way in court then I would be inclined to be "ill " over the weekend !

From my experience of industrial action where not all unions have called their members out, the union that is on strike offers a "day membership" for staff who want guaranteed protections but do not want to cross the picket line.

 

[455driver]

But I thought NR were talking or have they give up. If they have given up that is a poor show if you ask me.

The can talk all they like, but if it isn't addressing the problems then they are effectively saying nothing useful!

 

[Smudger105e]

I wonder whether today's inflation figures have lobbed a metaphorical hand grenade into the negotiations- if we're heading for a period of deflation with RPI below 1% then I don't honestly see how anybody can be expected to accept RPI as their pay settlement for the next couple of years.

For the umpteenth time, this dispute is NOT I repeat NOT a dispute purely about pay.

 

[455driver]

For the umpteenth time,
this dispute is NOT I repeat NOT a dispute purely about pay.

This might be a bit easier for the hard of thinking to read!
In fact the pay is such a small part of it to be almost inconsequential.

 

[bnm]

RMT say otherwise. From their most recent press release:

As previously advised, the union has called Network Rail members to take industrial action on Monday 25th May and Tuesday 26th May in our dispute over pay.

Ballot was titled "RATES OF PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE 2015"

In the first sentence of the latest press release, and the first part of the ballot title. I'd hardly call that inconsequential.

Unusually for me, and as a member of the travelling public, I support the RMT on this one.

 

[LAX54]

OK, well answer me this:-

1)....The union balloted their membership which gave them a mandate to strike.

2)....Every one seems to agree the right to strike is a matter to be protected and to be used as required when the membership have voted for a strike.

2)....So why the hell don't they go on the strike that their members have voted for, rather than taking part in talks that require a threat, as you say above, to continue action during the talks.

4)....Then, after that strike, go back to the negotiating table to see how much the strike has then strengthened their negotiation/bargaining position to obtain what they require.

Beacause there is, or was still OVER a week for both sides to knock there heads together, and come to some sort of an agreement and then the public will not be given grief, and staff will not lose money !
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Well if I was a TSSA member and it looked like NR get their way in court then I would be inclined to be "ill " over the weekend !

You would need an actual Doctor's Cert to cover you, and NOT a Self Cert one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder whether today's inflation figures have lobbed a metaphorical hand grenade into the negotiations- if we're heading for a period of deflation with RPI below 1% then I don't honestly see how anybody can be expected to accept RPI as their pay settlement for the next couple of years. My rule of thumb is that whatever your line of work, if you're doing your job properly (i.e not on disciplinary etc.) you should be getting the cost of living plus a percentage point or two to reflect an additional year's experience in the job.

The fact that there have been two days of talks so far suggests to me that they're going down into the detail of what's been offered and what would be acceptable to the unions, otherwise both sides would have walked away long ago- and I'm guessing that both sets of negotiators have to report to their masters at regular intervals. On a personal level, I've been a little bit conflicted as I'm planning to book a trip from Leeds to Lyon and Milan for the end of June, and I did ask myself whether I might be better flying, but Eurostar seem reasonably positive and I don't really mind getting the coach down to London if it means saving my holiday.

I would have tought it will have made the Union 'hand' even stronger, as the Bank of England have said they will strive to get inflation to 2% as soon as they can !
and pay is actually THIRD on the list of discussions !

 

[infobleep]

Electric Control Room Operative= ECRO

Thanks

 

[Robertj21a]

So the NR negotiator is told not to give them a payrise and then goes into the talks with you (the union), how exactly are you going to get a payrise then?

You seem to think the negotiators can sort it out amongst themselves but they have to work within the guidelines they have given by those further up the ladder and have to stick to the script otherwise come contract renewal day its bye bye!

You have never sat in any talks with management have you, that is plainly obvious by what you post!
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I

Thank you, very amusing.

As someone who has spent very many hours, weeks and months of my working life in such talks I think you may find that I have a fairly good knowledge. What surprises me from your comments is the fact that the negotiators being sent along don't have the authority to resolve matters. Quite ridiculous.
.

 

[infobleep]

The can talk all they like, but if it isn't addressing the problems then they are effectively saying nothing useful!

Fair enough.

 

[Domeyhead]

Can someone please spare me having to read through nearly 30 pages of this tit for tat and just post a link to any site where the RMT union's demands/complaints have been listed, along with NR's own response to them? With each component in their own words? I do not want to see RMTs interpretation of NR's response any more than I wan to see NR's interpretation of RMT's grievances. I just want to see each side's position in their own words and in the context of the other side's position. Thank you.

 

[45107]

Can someone please spare me having to read through nearly 30 pages of this tit for tat and just post a link to any site where the RMT union's demands/complaints have been listed, along with NR's own response to them? With each component in their own words? I do not want to see RMTs interpretation of NR's response any more than I wan to see NR's interpretation of RMT's grievances. I just want to see each side's position in their own words and in the context of the other side's position. Thank you.

How about doing a google (or whatever search engine you use) search or check the websites of Network Rail, RMT and TSSA for news.

 

[Nym]

I get the feeling (and I hope I am wrong) that NR have dug their heels in and wont budge on anything because they want to break the membership/unions once and for all and with 'that lot' in Government and the red top newspapers they will get all the support they need!

Given who is at the top and just how far the strikes went at the last place he worked (Phil Huffton, former COO of LUL), one can deduce that this is very much likely. It does seem he's taken an anti-union approach in whatever company he's joined.

I really do hope that I'm wrong on this, but I suspect that I'm not, and that another, overpaid, protectionist, money grabbing little... person. Will be trying to break the backs of the unions of another national resource. Likely screwing the economy at the same time and passing blame to the unions.

 

[LAX54]

A reminder:

8th April 2015

Important Update for all Network Rail Members

Dear Colleagues

Rates of Pay and Conditions of Service 2015 – Network Rail

Members will be aware that your union has been in negotiations with Network Rail since October 2014 on pay and we have been made a number of offers by the company.

In December 2014 they offered a 4 year pay deal with up to 2% for 2015 but linked to stringent productivity items that would have worsened members’ terms and conditions. In addition they only offered, for the 3 remaining years, lower inflation rate increases. Finally they would not extend the “No Compulsory Redundancy” agreement beyond December 2014. Your union quite rightly rejected this offer and following further negotiations the company made a revised offer in January 2015.

That offer withdrew the productivity strings but continued with a four year pay deal comprising of zero percent in 2015 and RPI increases for 2016, 2017 and 2018. They also offered a one year extension of the “No Compulsory Redundancy” agreement until the end of 2015 and the provision of an annual National Rail card. That second offer did not meet your aspirations as you voted by 93% to reject it!

Since the result of the referendum, the union has been in a series of intensive talks with Network Rail at ACAS and, as a result of these talks, a revised offer has been made which is as follows:-

Year One

For 2015 – A £500 non-consolidated lump sum for all staff (pro rata for part time staff) covered by bargaining groups.

Years Two, Three and Four

For 2016, 2017, 2018 - A consolidated RPI percentage increase with no salary reduction if RPI falls below zero percent, based on November of the previous year as reported in December. The anniversary date of 1st January remains the same.

Pay Equality

Network Rail has confirmed they are committed to equality proofing its pay arrangements.



Travel

The previous offer to provide an annual National Rail Card has been withdrawn.
Job Security

Non Compulsory Redundancy Arrangements

Network Rail has confirmed that they will extend the agreement during 2015 and 2016 for all bands 5-8 and equivalents in the bargaining groups - Maintenance, Operations and Controllers.

Employment Protection Understanding

Network Rail has given a firm commitment to avoid compulsory redundancies and to work within the principles of the current PTR&R arrangements by:

1) ¬Providing genuine redeployment opportunities, including re-training and relocation

2) Use of voluntary severance and possible bumping opportunities

3) Agreeing to have in place a formal agreement based on this understanding which has been consulted and agreed within six months of today, and to have a full joint review of its working within 12 months of today’s date. (7th April 2015)

4) Network Rail will endorse this agreement and mandate its implementation across the organisation and ensure its implementation.

Your union’s executive committee has considered the revised offer and has decided to call a meeting of our Network Rail Area Council representatives on Thursday 16th April at Unity House before considering our response to Network Rail’s revised offer.

I shall keep you informed of any developments.

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash
General Secretary

 

[infobleep]

According to a Guardian report the strike will cancel most trains.

http://gu.com/p/4955a

I wasn't expecting so many lines to be closed.

I wonder how Network Rail are deciding which services should run and which lines should be stay open.

Is it solely based on where staff who can do the work live or based on where the train services would be most useful. I suspect the former as staff surely would need to have knowledge of the signal box/centre they are working or it wouldn't be safe.