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RMT vote 4 to 1 to strike over NR pay

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The Planner

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NR staff have been offered 0% pay rise this year, and tied only to inflation from 2016-2020. In the meantime NR managers have awarded themselves bumper bonuses worth 20% of their salary.

Unless you are talking about the board or exec where I have no idea of their bonus package the above isn't true. The 20% bonus is a standard term for Band 1-3 management in their terms and conditions, and that can only pay out if NR beats its targets significantly. As it stands from the last CEO report, the bonus level was 21% of the max at the end of Period 13, so the maximum that can be paid out is 4.2% of their salary and that is only if the renumeration committee agree to it, they can reduce it further. For clarity the dispute is for Band 5-8 staff.
 
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Busterfridge

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When Cameron came out with that drivel about 'The whole country needs a pay rise' were we not running up to an election? Now the Tories have a majority government able to push through their sick and disgusting policies unchallenged, I will expect to see a fresh attack on the unions. This is very relevant here. Railway workers as opposed to other employees have benefited from a strong union and a threatened strike does send out a serious warning to the country. Expect Dave and his chums to work tirelessly to erode any power the unions have. To be offered what is affectively a 0% pay rise and a further stripping back of T&C's is quite frankly just insulting. To the ' but your stopping me getting to work' and 'you get paid enough' brigade, you are just pawns in a political game of chess, always have been always will be so get over it. NR want to decimate their workforce and Mark Carne has publicly shown his full support for slashing staff numbers with his digital rail concept.

Each and every year and during every pay negotiation the workers terms and conditions get slowly erased. Very soon the rail companies will have the employees they have tirelessly striven for, workers like robots who are terrified to speak up for their rights for fear of repercussions. I challenge any 'normal' to sit staring at IECC screens for 8-12 hours a day without getting dizzy in the first 5 minutes or attend a failure, chase a complex S&T drawing of a points circuit while having the mobile going off every 30 seconds asking what the hell is going on. The big difference between railway workers and an office worker is quite clear to see. If you make a mistake in an office, you don't potentially kill hundreds of people or bring an economy to a standstill. That's why railway workers are specialists in what they do and should be paid as so. I'm not saying nurses or teachers should be paid any more or any less, that's not the argument here and is like comparing apples and oranges. Everybody should be paid for their particular responsibility they bring to the job and it's up to each and every one of us as workers to stand up for our rights and it IS our right. Rail strikes hit hard and with not much of an alternative, there's no doubt they hit harder than if Asda staff were to strike. You would have sympathy with them but would cross the road and go to Tesco for your shopping. I remember back to the fuel blockades and the truly nasty things that were being banded about by the MSM about the tanker drivers simply because it affected so many people. Expect the same if a national rail strike is to take place.

Union bashing is very easy to the ignorant but tell me this. Are you seriously trying to tell me that if your office manager was to come to you with a bona fide pay offer which you asked for and he offered you 0% and made your job that little bit more fragile, you would be happy with this and your productivity would soar? Probably the opposite and your toilet and coffee breaks would get that little bit longer. As railway, we can't do that. I can't decide that because a manager has ****ed me off that I won't change the worn brake pads on a train or not put fuel in it. I wouldn't and couldn't get away with that. We are professionals and must be professional in what we do 24/7, that's how the railway runs safely in this country with the workers at the coalface and the managers behind, (literally) pushing us on. I will fight for my rights as an employee until my retirement/death (the latter probably being correct due to another Tory policy) and this is the same for anyone else.

NR need to take a step back, as do the union and come to an agreement that will suit everyone.

Could'nt have put it better myself, whole heartedly agree
 

DarloRich

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I'm sure this will be the first of many strikes as the unions vent their anger at the British public democratically voting against their party. If Labour had won there would have been no extra money and yet there would have been no strike as even the unions aren't stupid enough to strike (usually) right after a Labour win.

That being said and despite me being totally opposed to unions, the offer, if it's what is being reported, is not exactly amazing so it's no wonder staff feel so aggrieved. Compared to many of the ridiculous union strike ballots this one does seem to have some merit.

why are you "totally opposed to unions"? I dont understand the concept that people have of unions as some kind of demonising force.

You also seem to have overlooked the fact that:

1) The ballot was pre election (when the polls indicated a much closer contest for number 10)
2) the RMT do not contribute to Labour and have not done so for some time.
3) Their attacks on labour policy are quite open!

NR staff have been offered 0% pay rise this year, and tied only to inflation from 2016-2020. In the meantime NR managers have awarded themselves bumper bonuses worth 20% of their salary.

Perhaps at the top level!

EDIT REST REMOVED AS THE PLANNER BEAT ME TO IT

I will say that it didn't take pong for the usual anti union Tory trollist air heads to pop up with their usual wibble
 
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TUC

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I can see why strikes frustrate the travelling public but phrases like 'so they can have more money' are misguided at best. How did the general population get turned against people fighting for good terms and conditions? When did people start just 'accepting' what they're given rather than try themselves for something better, then go on the attack at those who are still 'fighting' for those terms everyone else threw away? :|

Because we're tired of certain groups thinking that the constraints that others have had to live with don't apply to them, even when over the past 20 years their lot has improved considerably. It's alson noticeable that this usually involves groups who, even if now indirectly, work in services funded by the public sector and so still think there should be a more open cheque book than if they were fully in the private sector.
 

AM9

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I have no axe to grind either way in this dispute and I suspect that not all of those expressing venom about the position of either the union or the management necessarily knows all the salient facts.
I do feel that as was the case way back in the '70s, when legislation against union action was virtually non-existent, we may see the return of unofficial worker action if the government applies rules for authorising action that can be regarded as undemocratic. By that I mean legislation for strike criteria that considerably exceed those for electing representatives in public office.
We could be seeing (very) short and sharp strikes and other well-timed actions that would be difficult to deal with either at the time or in preventing thereafter, (e.g. by simply sacking those involved). Gone are the days of blaming the man on the soap box, whether union official or not, nowadays messages would be sent by social media and some of the newer very short lifetime messaging services, like snap-chat where the message can effectively be untraceable. I doubt that employees will take to this easily, but when all other channels of legitimate action are removed, desperate measures may be taken.
 

chris11256

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I was just going by a semi recent classification which meant that all NR debt is backed by the government, which therefore makes it almost a state company.

Whether it actually is in practice....
 

ComUtoR

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And as a public servant, I (and my colleagues) have had NO increase since 2010, funnily enough when the coalition came to power

Do you believe that if you belonged to a union and/or decided to take a firm stand for a simple cost of living increase that you would of had pay increases ?
 

A-driver

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It may be inadequate but it isn't an "attack" on anything, I agree. But as the NR managers know that the unions will ask for more, isn't the standard pattern case now to offer too little then when the unions strike you end up where you wanted to be?


Well none of what you have said is true. Once again you post utter tosh under the pretence you know what you are on about. It is not standard practice for unions to ask for more or for pay talks to lead to strikes. Every TOC has a paytalk every year or 2. How many of them led to a ballot or strike?!

Think before posting please, it adds nothing to a thread for you to just make up any old rubbish and post it like you have a clue what you are on about!
 

LAX54

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Actually that's a common scenario in office environments for struggling companies.
I can't do a flow chart on here but a typical chain of events would be:
1. Company suffers 10% cut in workload
2. Company makes 20% of employees redundant and freezes pay for the rest or even ask people to take a pay cut
3. Existing employees finish up doing additional work and find it impossible to do it within their contracted hours so finish up doing additional unpaid hours because they fear losing their job if they don't.

Then when things begin to pick up new employee(s) join at market rate salaries despite existing employees being below market rate due to pay freezes but the budget for additional staffing costs gets concentrated on much needed extra staff opposed to much needed pay rises for existing staff.

So yes productivity does increase with pay freezes because the least productive employees get made redundant and remaining employees fear they'll be next to do if they don't go the extra mile.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ah yes. That was the improved offer Network Rail made.


But of course the Railways are not in decline / trouble, they keep saying that income / passengers / amount of trains running are increasing ata fair old rate, year in, year out !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update on the BBC article.
We're certainly a step closer to the first national rail strike in two decades.

And the fact that the RMT look after signal workers means any strike action would freeze the whole network.

But there's still a way to go before commuters face any chaos.

My understanding is that there is not an insurmountable gap between the unions and Network Rail. The sticking point isn't the whole pay deal, just this year's £500 lump sum offer, coupled with a guarantee about forced redundancies.

Both sides also say they are prepared to keep talking.

We may see strikes announced, possibly over the bank holiday.

But there is a decent chance (not definite, mind) that they will reach a new deal and call them off.


Consolidate the £500 rather then a lump sum, if they want a 4 year deal, fair do's RPI+0.5% and agree to discuss redundancies, would maybe halt to dispute ? I am sure most Railway Staff recognise that No Compulsary Redundancies cannot last forever ?
 

DarloRich

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Consolidate the £500 rather then a lump sum, if they want a 4 year deal, fair do's RPI+0.5% and agree to discuss redundancies, would maybe halt to dispute ? I am sure most Railway Staff recognise that No Compulsary Redundancies cannot last forever ?

The issue of no compulsory redundancies is really quite important to many of the RMT members in signal boxes who are facing that very problem in the next few years.

X£ per year x 2 years guaranteed is better than £500 consolidated plus rpi & 0.5% for 4 years when you are facing the chop inside 2 years!
 

carriageline

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Spoke to a whole array of people about this today, everyone said the same. The railway is trying so hard to rebuild its rep, no one wants to go out on strike, this is to prick the senior managers attention that we won't be walked over, but we are willing to walk out if we are not treated fairly.

People think we are being greedy, I fail to see that. I think most people will take that 500 pound put into their wages, which lets face it is nothing.

As I have said, treat and reward your workforce, and they will be willing to do more for you. The railway is ran on goodwill.
 

Bodiddly

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That's a good point. What makes NR staff different from any other government employee who has had a salary increase cap?

And as a public servant, I (and my colleagues) have had NO increase since 2010, funnily enough when the coalition came to power

Network Rail is not part of the civil service and employees are not civil servants. It is not the same as local government or the NHS in terms of how it operates. As someone stated earlier, NR makes money for re-investment but has eye watering debt to deal with. This is why they are offering paltry wage increases, they say they have no money to pay increased wages which is in fact an old civil service response. Swills has it spot on, the railways are booming and will get even busier in the very near future so it is only fair that employees share in the increased revenues for all the hard work that's been put in.
 
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Islineclear3_1

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Do you believe that if you belonged to a union and/or decided to take a firm stand for a simple cost of living increase that you would of had pay increases ?

The short answer is no. My union has failed every year until recently to bargain for a cost of living pay rise and the offer was only slightly better than 0%.

I stopped paying union fees years ago because I got nothing from them. Many unions give pots of money to political parties in the hope of preferential treatment.

As mentioned elsewhere, computers and robots will eventually take over skilled human work. The technology is almost there as a large hamburger chain in the US is seriously considering. Robots do what they are told, do not complain, do not ask for pay rises, nor do they go on strike. Remember, Boris wants driverless tube trains.

There is most definately a case for performance linked pay but lets face it, the bonus culture for directors in most industries will never go away.
 
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ComUtoR

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The short answer is no. My union has failed every year until recently to bargain for a cost of living pay rise and the offer was only slightly better than 0%.

Many thanks for your response. Many people I know who moan about lack of pay rises tend to be in sectors without a union. It saddens me when a Union doesn't take a firm stance and let pay and conditions erode slowly.

I stopped paying union fees years ago because I got nothing from them. Many unions give pots of money to political parties in the hope of preferential treatment.

You can, and I did, ask for the political contribution to be refunded.

Well done for voting with your feet. I do support the Unions but do not like the attitude that they automatically get your membership because you are in a specific industry.

On topic. I fully support the RMT's action and hope the membership get a fair deal.
 

FordFocus

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I'm sure this will be the first of many strikes as the unions vent their anger at the British public democratically voting against their party. If Labour had won there would have been no extra money and yet there would have been no strike as even the unions aren't stupid enough to strike (usually) right after a Labour win.

As expected on this forum, another anti-union post with little evidence or fact. The strikes aren't about which political party is in power, strikes happened under labour numerous times. This is about the pay and conditions of workers (of different political opinions) whether it's the Tories or the Jellyfish Party in power.

The RMT haven't affiliated with the Labour Party for over a decade as the late Bob Crow once said, they turned their backs on the working class and trade unions so why should we give them our money?
 

Cletus

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So, is a pre-strike seven day announcement imminent?
(because I'm going to the West Country next week and I'd like to get back by train).
 

LAX54

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So, is a pre-strike seven day announcement imminent?
(because I'm going to the West Country next week and I'd like to get back by train).

Very much doubt it, more talks, maybe talk of an O/T ban, then they will all come to an agreement and problem solved, I do not think what is currently on the table and what the RMT are prepared to accept is that mauch different. (but enough to make a difference to staff) As far as I can work out paywise they are not asking for that much, maybe 1% ?
 

me123

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So, I'd be very keen to know if/when the strikes are planned so that I can make arrangements to see my family again in about a month's time.7 days notice is required as I've seen above, but would I be safe buying Advance tickets at the moment (i.e., can they be refunded based on strike action, even if replacement bus services operate?).

Have to say that I have limited sympathy for the staff involved. As a public sector employee in another field, I challenge anyone (public or private) to accept the conditions that I have to work under. I'm not saying that you don't have the right to take the action that you feel necessary, but considering that on my very occasional days off work I may struggle to make the best of use of my time and see family and friends, I have to say I'm not best impressed.
 
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Bevan Price

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What is the typical current take-home pay of, say, a NR signaller, train planner, maintenance staff, etc. ?
 

Ianigsy

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When do people think the strike might be(weekday/weekend or bank holiday)? If I was a union man I'd want to cause as much chaos as possible to get maximum impact, so would do it on a weekday.

When the last lot of Royal Mail strikes were on a few years back, different parts of the operation in various parts of the country came out on different days- more disruption for less loss of members' pay. I can see two problems with coming out over the actual bank holiday weekend- firstly, some lines will be closed for engineering work and signalling staff not actually due to work and secondly, while it might seem like a good idea to write off some of the engineering work planned for the weekend, there's always the risk that the general safety of the railway could be compromised if the work isn't done and there isn't another window of opportunity to do it before the August bank holiday. Probably more effective to go on the Friday to hit the getaway and the Tuesday for the return to work.

On a personal level it's a bit of a concern that I'm planning to go from Leeds to Birkenhead that weekend although it's theoretically to do most of the journey I'm planning to make by coach and 437 bus for the last leg. Hopefully this will all be sorted out by the end of June when I'm planning to head for Lyon via Paris- again I can always fly and it would probably be cheaper, but we'll see.
 

carriageline

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So, I'd be very keen to know if/when the strikes are planned so that I can make arrangements to see my family again in about a month's time.7 days notice is required as I've seen above, but would I be safe buying Advance tickets at the moment (i.e., can they be refunded based on strike action, even if replacement bus services operate?).



Have to say that I have limited sympathy for the staff involved. As a public sector employee in another field, I challenge anyone (public or private) to accept the conditions that I have to work under. I'm not saying that you don't have the right to take the action that you feel necessary, but considering that on my very occasional days off work I may struggle to make the best of use of my time and see family and friends, I have to say I'm not best impressed.


I'm not a public sector employee as far as I am concerned. Don't worry, your not the only one that has little time off. I am roughly having one day off every 10/11 days at the moment to help cover sickness and vacancies. Yes I'm being paid extra for it, but I am mainly doing it to help the company keep the panels open, and to help the roster clerk out.

Yes we have it good, but the company is making a profit every year. They should be sharing that with the people who make it happen day in, day out. Not the CE and Directors who have been in the job under a year, and already paid themselves a few hundreds thousands in bonuses and a pay rise.

I am not best impressed the company is treating us badly and unfairly. Morale is low, the company is stretched but yet we are making a profit but we are not seeing that on the ground. Fair? I think not.

Signallers money varies, lowest paid is (from top of my head) 22kk(ish) highest is 42k(ish)So don't believe when the company come out (again) that we all earn 70k!! I wish.
 

theironroad

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Just because the line is closed for engineering work doesn't mean everyone has gone home. Who do you think signals the plethora of engineering trains into and from possession sites?

Most pre planned engineering work is concerned with long term renewals and the planning will have been done months in advance. This is not short term emergency engineering work that has a more time critical nature, so while it's postponement may be inconvenient and mean a temporary speed restriction remains in place, it is not going to impair the railways safety.



When the last lot of Royal Mail strikes were on a few years back, different parts of the operation in various parts of the country came out on different days- more disruption for less loss of members' pay. I can see two problems with coming out over the actual bank holiday weekend- firstly, some lines will be closed for engineering work and signalling staff not actually due to work and secondly, while it might seem like a good idea to write off some of the engineering work planned for the weekend, there's always the risk that the general safety of the railway could be compromised if the work isn't done and there isn't another window of opportunity to do it before the August bank holiday. Probably more effective to go on the Friday to hit the getaway and the Tuesday for the return to work.

On a personal level it's a bit of a concern that I'm planning to go from Leeds to Birkenhead that weekend although it's theoretically to do most of the journey I'm planning to make by coach and 437 bus for the last leg. Hopefully this will all be sorted out by the end of June when I'm planning to head for Lyon via Paris- again I can always fly and it would probably be cheaper, but we'll see.
 

DarloRich

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What is the typical current take-home pay of, say, a NR signaller, train planner, maintenance staff, etc. ?

whats your take home pay?

(It doesn't matter what a signaler is paid really does it other than to give you or others an opportunity to say that they are paid to much and shouldn't strike.)
 
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LAX54

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When the last lot of Royal Mail strikes were on a few years back, different parts of the operation in various parts of the country came out on different days- more disruption for less loss of members' pay. I can see two problems with coming out over the actual bank holiday weekend- firstly, some lines will be closed for engineering work and signalling staff not actually due to work and secondly, while it might seem like a good idea to write off some of the engineering work planned for the weekend, there's always the risk that the general safety of the railway could be compromised if the work isn't done and there isn't another window of opportunity to do it before the August bank holiday. Probably more effective to go on the Friday to hit the getaway and the Tuesday for the return to work.

On a personal level it's a bit of a concern that I'm planning to go from Leeds to Birkenhead that weekend although it's theoretically to do most of the journey I'm planning to make by coach and 437 bus for the last leg. Hopefully this will all be sorted out by the end of June when I'm planning to head for Lyon via Paris- again I can always fly and it would probably be cheaper, but we'll see.

Quite the opposite, Staff work are damned sight harder including Signallers during Engineering work ! anyway who says there WILL be a strike ? the main mandate was action short of a strike, so would have thought if anyhting that would come first.
 

carriageline

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I'm not sure if this has been said but I will repeat this here. There is more to us than the money, we ain't asking for 10% rise. We are asking for what isn't a pay cut and fair.

Over the coming X years, Network Rail will be shutting signal boxes, depots and offices. This will change the signaller role, It has previously stated it wants us signallers on management style contracts and T&Cs. If we let them walk over us now,they will bulldoze through with the coming changes and we will be stuffed for a long time. If they know we will fight, then maybe they will leave us alone! Can always hope
 
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