RMT vote 4 to 1 to strike over NR pay

[pemma]

The £500 is less than RPI, and not consolidated, so it is a real terms cut.

....

It's become a perfect storm for a vote for industrial action.

RPI is currently 0.9% so every Network Rail employee who was balloted is on at least £55,556 by your claim. No wonder people want industrial action if the semi-skilled employees get £55,556, the skilled ones will want salaries comparable with the Prime Minister.

 

[Marklund]

The pay claim dates back to the start of the year...

RPI was higher then...

 

[Wolfie]

Conservative manifesto included it and as the Conservatives got a majority it can be made law if no rebel Conservatives vote against it. A national rail strike might get it pushed through immediately opposed to a couple of years down the line.

I imagine Human Rights-type litigation would follow. The Coalition lost a shedload of cases (the funniest being the successful legally aided application for judicial review of the Coalition's decision to cut legal aid, which were deemed to be unlawful) hence the Tories want to do away with the Human Rights Act.

Assuming (far from certain as many Tories on the left of the partry will rebel and the opposition will be united) the Tories can do that, they will likely STILL lose in the UK and/or European Courts unless UK pulls out of the European Convention on Human Rights (which UK pretty much wrote in the 1950s, and something which even Putin hasn't done!). All the much-hated by the Tories/right wing media Human Rights Act does is embed UK's obligations under the Convention into UK law. Removing the law does not remove the Convention obligations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or, perhaps more appropriately, how do they compare to jobs of similar responsibility within NR and the TOCs?

That is not at all anything to do with the question that I asked, which I am well aware that you know....:roll:

 

[pemma]

The pay claim dates back to the start of the year...

RPI was higher then...

RPI was 2% last November, it was 1.6% by last December and 1.1% by February. Predictions at the start of the year was that RPI would be negative by the Summer.

 

[Marklund]

So it wasn't the 0.9% you said then...

 

[Ships]

That's a good point. What makes NR staff different from any other government employee who has had a salary increase cap?

They're an arms length public sector organisation.

 

[pemma]

I imagine Human Rights-type litigation would follow. The Coalition lost a shedload of cases (the funniest being the legally aided application to successfully review the Coalition's decision to cut legal aid) hence the Tories want to do away with the Human Rights Act.

Assuming (far from certain as many Tories on the left of the partry will rebel and the opposition will be united) the Tories can do that they will likely STILL lose in the UK and/or European Courts unless UK pulls out of the European Convention on Human Rights (which UK pretty much wrote in the 1950s, and something which even Putin hasn't done!). All The much-hated by the Tories/right wing media Human Rights Act does is embed UK's obligations under the Convention into UK law. Removing the law does not remove the Convention obligations.

Cameron's speech today:

For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone.

 

[Ships]

Probably when the RMT leaders started making ridiculous claims, criticizing NWR whenever they did anything at all, and when they started to seem to be striking every other week. I agree that strikes should be allowed, but I'd imagine that in the past few years, a lot of people have started thinking that there are way too many.

First rail strike since 2000?! 15 years ago, hardly striking every time the RMT don't like something is it.

 

[The Planner]

NR pay rises are normally based on the RPI at the back end of the year, so October or November RPI value.

 

[Wolfie]

Actually that's a common scenario in office environments for struggling companies.

I can't do a flow chart on here but a typical chain of events would be:
1. Company suffers 10% cut in workload
2. Company makes 20% of employees redundant and freezes pay for the rest or even ask people to take a pay cut
3. Existing employees finish up doing additional work and find it impossible to do it within their contracted hours so finish up doing additional unpaid hours because they fear losing their job if they don't.

Then when things begin to pick up new employee(s) join at market rate salaries despite existing employees being below market rate due to pay freezes but the budget for additional staffing costs gets concentrated on much needed extra staff opposed to much needed pay rises for existing staff.

So yes productivity does increase with pay freezes because the least productive employees get made redundant and remaining employees fear they'll be next to do if they don't go the extra mile.

You missed "... in the short term" from the end of your last sentence because then what happens is:
4. Existing staff with valuable skills vote with their feet and go where they are more valued.

I know that's what would happen, it happened to me. Doesn't make it ok though. I didn't have a union to back me up at the time and felt so strongly about it I went out and found another job. Not an option for most people who need an income and I genuinely feel for people in that predicament. Surely though, all it does is create a resentful workforce who are not giving the job 100%?

I rest my case...

 

[Marklund]

NR pay rises are normally based on the RPI at the back end of the year, so October or November RPI value.

Exactly.
Trying to present today's RPI figure for a dispute that has been toing and froing for 6 months is misguided at best.

 

[pemma]

So it wasn't the 0.9% you said then...

You're changing your argument. You didn't say it doesn't meet the historic rate of RPI.

The RMT announced they would ballot members on 21st April: http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-balloting-timetable-for-network-rail/

So sorry for causing you offence by quoting the RPI rate at the date the RMT announced they would ballot members.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That is not at all anything to do with the question that I asked, which I am well aware that you know....:roll:

It is, because you were asking the wrong question.

Bob Crow was, with everything thrown in, on about £140,000 a year. It's not a bad wedge, of course it isn't, but compare that to what the bosses are on.

In TfL the head of Underground pockets £400,000 a year, and the overall boss of TfL trousers the thick end of £650,000 a year.

In Network Rail, the CEO trousers a whopping £700,000 a year- almost £100,000 more than his predecessor. And it is Mr Carne, parachuted in at huge expense from Shell ("we're all in this together"), who I was referring to before.

I wouldn't want my union boss on obscene Fat Cat wages, but I wouldn't want my union boss to be on tuppence ha'penny either. The skills I would want in a union boss aren't something you can get from someone doing it as a hobby.

 

[Ships]

Unless you are talking about the board or exec where I have no idea of their bonus package the above isn't true. The 20% bonus is a standard term for Band 1-3 management in their terms and conditions, and that can only pay out if NR beats its targets significantly. As it stands from the last CEO report, the bonus level was 21% of the max at the end of Period 13, so the maximum that can be paid out is 4.2% of their salary and that is only if the renumeration committee agree to it, they can reduce it further. For clarity the dispute is for Band 5-8 staff.

I think it was aimed at the recent additions to the exec team such as MR Carne and Mr Houghton who have had large increases over their predecessors

 

[pemma]

4. Existing staff with valuable skills vote with their feet and go where they are more valued.

Where possible, yes. However, in late 2008 and 2009 there was a severe shortage of better companies for such people to move to.

 

[Marklund]

You're changing your argument. You didn't say it doesn't meet the historic rate of RPI.

The strike ballot was announced on 21st April: http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-balloting-timetable-for-network-rail/

So sorry for causing you offence by quoting the RPI rate at the date the RMT announced they would ballot members.

You are aware the pay talks have been going on since 2014? :roll:

 

[pemma]

You are aware the pay talks have been going on since 2014? :roll:

The pay claim dates back to the start of the year...

RPI was higher then...

Make your mind up!

I'm not working out RPI for every month because you keep changing your mind. So I'll stick to my original argument.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not working out RPI for every month because you keep changing your mind. So I'll stick to my original argument.

...which goes to show just how ludicrous making wage offers based on RPI on a set date is.

 

[Marklund]

Make your mind up!

I'm not working out RPI for every month because you keep changing your mind. So I'll stick to my original argument.

I've never changed my point, it's you that is hard of understanding. :roll:

Network Rail pay negotiations have for quite some time used the RPI figure from November for the following years rise. i.e. for the 2012 pay rise the November 2011 RPI figure was used.

The RPI figure for November 2014 was 2%. This is where any form of RPI negotiation for 2015 onwards should be from.

Forget any current RPI rates, this dispute is 6 months old, and the ballot date is irrelevant, as much as your 0.9% figure.

 

[Ships]

THat is garbage, it barely even qualifies as sophistry. Just about everyone has "key skills that can't easily be replaced" on a national scale. An individual milkman could cause localised disruption by abandoning his milkfloat in the middle of a street, though the amount of disruption has no bearing on his skill or his job. However if all milkmen were part of a union which coordinated all milkmen to abandon their milkfloats simultaneously to cause widespread gridlock - has the milkman's job suddenly and mysteriously become more skilled or more deserving simply because they belong to a union? And how does that have any bearing on the job remuneration? You are telling us that a person's wages should be directly proportional to the blackmail they can exert, which is itself entirely related to the degree of coordinated industrial action they can call. You are mouthing the sort of argument that goes down unchallenged in the messroom but when aired to the travelling public (who in many cases perform jobs far more skilled and qualified than yours) your argument is facile and immature.

Please stop trolling....

 

[Bodiddly]

It is, because you were asking the wrong question.

Bob Crow was, with everything thrown in, on about £140,000 a year. It's not a bad wedge, of course it isn't, but compare that to what the bosses are on.

In TfL the head of Underground pockets £400,000 a year, and the overall boss of TfL trousers the thick end of £650,000 a year.

In Network Rail, the CEO trousers a whopping £700,000 a year- almost £100,000 more than his predecessor. And it is Mr Carne, parachuted in at huge expense from Shell ("we're all in this together"), who I was referring to before.

I wouldn't want my union boss on obscene Fat Cat wages, but I wouldn't want my union boss to be on tuppence ha'penny either. The skills I would want in a union boss aren't something you can get from someone doing it as a hobby.

Bob Crow was worth every single penny of his salary. Without Bob, Boris would have ran amok.
I think Mick Cash has gigantic boots to fill.

 

[pemma]

I've never changed my point, it's you that is hard of understanding. :roll:.

You blatantly are changing your point

You said

The £500 is less than RPI, and not consolidated, so it is a real terms cut.

Then when I pointed out RPI is 0.9% you said

The pay claim dates back to the start of the year...

Then when I gave RPI at the start of the year you said.

You are aware the pay talks have been going on since 2014?

Now you're saying

I've never changed my point

If Nick Clegg said he'll be Prime Minister by the end of the year I'd find that more believable than your claim you never changed your point.

 

[Marklund]

You blatantly are changing your point

You said



Then when I pointed out RPI is 0.9% you said



Then when I gave RPI at the start of the year you said.



Now you're saying



If Nick Clegg said he'll be Prime Minister by the end of the year I'd find that more believable than your claim you never changed your point.

I can't understand how difficult it is for you to work out Network Rail pay negotiations.
They're simple.
If you can't understand that RPI from November forms the basis of negotiations for the next year, then I give up.

And yes, £500 is less then I would receive under a 2% RPI rise. Not that what I earn is any of your business.

 

[pemma]

If you can't understand that RPI from November forms the basis of negotiations for the next year, then I give up.

I can understand that but you didn't say that originally and only said it after I pointed out RPI has fallen a lot since last November.

And yes, £500 is less then I would receive under a 2% RPI rise. Not that what I earn is any of your business.

If the RMT didn't publicly dispute offers saying they are not good enough for it's members then no-one would know or care.

 

[Marklund]

I can understand that but you didn't say that originally and only said it after I pointed out RPI has fallen a lot since last November.

To be honest, given the length of the thread, and the posts already made, one didn't appreciate it needed spelling out so basically, nor did I think that someone would think that the current RPI figure would be used for a dispute that has been going on for 6 months.

 

[Tomnick]

Whether the £500 offer represents a payment less than or greater than the increase in the cost of living over the year or not is neither here nor there really. It's a non consolidated payment, which means that, even if it does mean that this year's pay stands still, next year we'll drop back to where we are now which will almost certainly represent a cut in real terms.

I appreciate that taking the RPI figure in November, as has apparently been the case for some time now, means that it's not representative of the whole year - but it seems a fair basis for a pay deal. When RPI's increased between November and the pay deal being agreed, the figure hasn't been increased to compensate, so it shouldn't make a difference if it's lower now than it was in November.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'd love an IT job where I live, instead of commuting to London. Only problem is the 10-15K pay cut which makes it completely uneconomical.

The stock answer to that is usually tough!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is, because you were asking the wrong question.

Are you saying that I am not capable of asking a question, just because that question does not meet your views on comparative matters...hock:

I asked a straightforward question and somewhere recently on this thread, the answer to my question was forthcoming. End of the matter.

 

[ComUtoR]

I spoke with a few NR employees today. One was a member of Unite. Does anyone know if Unite will also be balloting for action or will they be forced to cross the line ?