RMT vote 4 to 1 to strike over NR pay

[Goldfish62]

I spoke with a few NR employees today. One was a member of Unite. Does anyone know if Unite will also be balloting for action or will they be forced to cross the line ?

With our bizarre IR laws in this country, it is legal for a non-union person in the same negotiating group as those who are on strike to also join the strike. However, for someone who is in another union, but one which which hasn't balloted for action, even if in the same group of employees, they are acting illegally if they partake in action and do not cross a picket line.

I know this from advise from Unite during industrial action at my workplace last year.

 

[pemma]

With our bizarre IR laws in this country, it is legal for a non-union person in the same negotiating group as those who are on strike to also join the strike. However, for someone who is in another union, but one which which hasn't balloted for action, even if in the same group of employees, they are acting illegally if they partake in action and do not cross a picket line.

I know this from advise from Unite during industrial action at my workplace last year.

Unofficial industrial action
This is action that isn’t organised by a trade union or isn’t supported by the union you’re a member of.

Industrial action by non-union members
Non-union members who take part in legal, official industrial action have the same rights as union members not to be dismissed as a result of taking action.

https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I spoke with a few NR employees today. One was a member of Unite. Does anyone know if Unite will also be balloting for action or will they be forced to cross the line ?

Can someone clarify exactly how the current dispute affects the working conditions of the union members of the Unite union? Were they too promised the said £500 payment?

Always willing to learn on matters such as this.

 

[ComUtoR]

There should be a collective bargaining agreement in place. All employees are covered by this irrespective of their union or not being a member. Collective bargaining is common and because RMT are the majority they get to place at the table.

Hopefully someone will confirm or correct

 

[carriageline]

There should be a collective bargaining agreement in place. All employees are covered by this irrespective of their union or not being a member. Collective bargaining is common and because RMT are the majority they get to place at the table.



Hopefully someone will confirm or correct

That's correct. I believe other unions have also balloted with the results due tomorrow I believe.

 

[Class 170101]

TSSA ballot closes Friday so I am led to understand.

 

[carriageline]

TSSA ballot closes Friday so I am led to understand.

Sorry that's what I meant! Literally don't know what day it is

 

[47403]

So, I'd be very keen to know if/when the strikes are planned so that I can make arrangements to see my family again in about a month's time.7 days notice is required as I've seen above, but would I be safe buying Advance tickets at the moment (i.e., can they be refunded based on strike action, even if replacement bus services operate?).

Im keen to know this answer Ive already got tickets for the midlands, 3 day rover and hotel booked, in just over 2 weeks time.

 

[455driver]

https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action

Originally Posted by gov.uk

Unofficial industrial action
This is action that isn’t organised by a trade union or isn’t supported by the union you’re a member of.

Industrial action by non-union membersNon-union members who take part in legal, official industrial action have the same rights as union members not to be dismissed as a result of taking action.

I have highlighted the important bit, it says a union, it does not say 'by a trade union you are a member of'.

While everybody is okay to not cross the picket line all the TSSA has to say is that they support this strike (if it gets to that) and their members are in the clear on both counts.

 

[lincolnshire]

NR pay rises are normally based on the RPI at the back end of the year, so October or November RPI value.

I believe the deal for maintenance staff was RPI +½ % for the past few years, I wonder if the man at Network Rail who agreed this is still employed or still in the same post?

Over the past few years the staff has had some good pay rises as compared with other workers and also on a 35 hour week as compared with other peoples working hours per week.

Not saying its wrong to get a rise, but talk and listen to other people and see what rise and number of hours they work per week in there jobs.

There is still the big difference between staff in different area,s who worked for the former rail maintenance companies on basic pay and conditions of service etc. This is one area Network Rail decided to leave alone as they didn,t seem to be able to sort a national agreement for these staff.

 

[The Planner]

The 35 hour week has been in place for some years, I dont see how that has relevance to this.

 

[LAX54]

I believe the deal for maintenance staff was RPI +½ % for the past few years, I wonder if the man at Network Rail who agreed this is still employed or still in the same post?

Over the past few years the staff has had some good pay rises as compared with other workers and also on a 35 hour week as compared with other peoples working hours per week.

Not saying its wrong to get a rise, but talk and listen to other people and see what rise and number of hours they work per week in there jobs.

There is still the big difference between staff in different area,s who worked for the former rail maintenance companies on basic pay and conditions of service etc. This is one area Network Rail decided to leave alone as they didn,t seem to be able to sort a national agreement for these staff.

All Ops Staff have been RPI +0.5% for the past umpteen years, and it has worked quite well, and when interest was low, 0.2% at one point the staff got 0.7%. as for 35 hours not many staff are able to work to this, ad you have to do Sundays too, so that adds at least 8 or maybe 12 hours to various weeks, and although they are 'outside' the week, they have to be worked if no cover, an area not yet sorted by the Unions.

 

[Greenback]

If the hours per week are relevant to this discussion, then I would say that things like shift patters, anti social hours and other terms of service are just as relevant.

 

[lincolnshire]

The 35 hour week has been in place for some years, I dont see how that has relevance to this.

Was not meaning Network rail staff and the 35 hour week I was referring to what other people in general have as a working week, some are still on 40 hour weeks in this country.
You do the sums yourself on how much your paid an hour for a 35 hour week as against a 40 hour week what some people have to work in the big outside world.

 

[Greenback]

Doesn't the big outside world include Network Rail then? Implicit in your choice is that NR is in some sort of protective bubble. Even if it were, which I doubt very much, comparing one hourly rate to someone else's is only asking for trouble, as the conditions may be very different, for example unsocial hours, perks such as travel facilities, free car parking, canteen facilities and flexi time to name but a few.

The hourly pay rate is a very simplistic way to try and measure the relative value of different employment.

 

[carriageline]

Talking of anti social hours, personally I would love to see some people try and work these shifts we have to do. Fatigue is still a massive issue internally and rightly so

 

[Bodiddly]

Doesn't the big outside world include Network Rail then? Implicit in your choice is that NR is in some sort of protective bubble. Even if it were, which I doubt very much, comparing one hourly rate to someone else's is only asking for trouble, as the conditions may be very different, for example unsocial hours, perks such as travel facilities, free car parking, canteen facilities and flexi time to name but a few.

The hourly pay rate is a very simplistic way to try and measure the relative value of different employment.

And not a true measure in today's dog eat dog world where more and more employees are being over worked. People are being forced by their workload to longer, unpaid hours thus eroding their hourly rate further. Isn't this why large corporations pay salaries rather than hourly rate? You would find a lot of these big companies seeking cheaper employees elsewhere if people were being paid for the actual time they spent working.
This is one good reason for a strong union.

 

[A-driver]

And not a true measure in today's dog eat dog world where more and more employees are being over worked. People are being forced by their workload to longer, unpaid hours thus eroding their hourly rate further. Isn't this why large corporations pay salaries rather than hourly rate? You would find a lot of these big companies seeking cheaper employees elsewhere if people were being paid for the actual time they spent working.

This is one good reason for a strong union.

Absolutely.

I know the "race to the bottom" is often mentioned on here and I'm not over fond of the term but I think one important thing to consider when people get angry that rail staff earn more than many other workers is that employers in numerous industries have been able to get away with reducing or freezing pay and increasing workloads recently. Thanks largely to unions and the workforce actually standing together on these things rail employers have had less success. That means we retain a lot of conditions and pay which other industries have lost. Our comparatively high pay etc isn't so much down to 'greedy unions demanding huge pay rises' but down to strong unions and the workforce refusing to give up conditions.

Zero hours contracts would be absolutely perfect for most rail industry employers-driver wise it means no paying for spare cover, no overtime, no cancelations due to no crew, no union power etc but it would also mean yet another workforce who struggle to get mortgages, support a family, lead a half decent lifestyle etc.

I really think that outside industries who get annoyed at the rail industry 'enjoying'(as it is often put!) getting decent pay rises and retaining good conditions need to realise that they are going about it backwards to try and get the rail industry workforce down to their shoddy level. They should be looking at ways of upping their own work/life balance.

 

[Clip]

The pay offer was derisory so I am not surprised they voted to strike.

 

[Domeyhead]

Absolutely.

I know the "race to the bottom" is often mentioned on here and I'm not over fond of the term but I think one important thing to consider when people get angry that rail staff earn more than many other workers is that employers in numerous industries have been able to get away with reducing or freezing pay and increasing workloads recently. Thanks largely to unions and the workforce actually standing together on these things rail employers have had less success. That means we retain a lot of conditions and pay which other industries have lost. Our comparatively high pay etc isn't so much down to 'greedy unions demanding huge pay rises' but down to strong unions and the workforce refusing to give up conditions.

Zero hours contracts would be absolutely perfect for most rail industry employers-driver wise it means no paying for spare cover, no overtime, no cancelations due to no crew, no union power etc but it would also mean yet another workforce who struggle to get mortgages, support a family, lead a half decent lifestyle etc.

I really think that outside industries who get annoyed at the rail industry 'enjoying'(as it is often put!) getting decent pay rises and retaining good conditions need to realise that they are going about it backwards to try and get the rail industry workforce down to their shoddy level. They should be looking at ways of upping their own work/life balance.

Good honest post - and a refeshing change after pages and pages of thin skinned hypersensitive rubbish about vicious "attacks" and poor helpless "victims".

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Has a date (s) been set for this possible rail strike. I did hear that it could be as soon as the forthcoming late May Bank Holiday weekend. However not sure how credible that info was?

 

[LAX54]

Has a date (s) been set for this possible rail strike. I did hear that it could be as soon as the forthcoming late May Bank Holiday weekend. However not sure how credible that info was?

No one has any idea yet, no doubt they are waiting for the ballot result from the TSSA and to see if NR open the door again to see the RMT to reopen / continue negotiations !

 

[Goatboy]

How about a 5% per annum pay rise?

We can raise fares even more to pay for it and then eventually just shut the entire railway down once everyone has given up with bothering.

I've pretty much found myself priced off the railways these days (latest - trip from Devon to Croydon and return next month, £45 in fuel + £6.50 parking + £5 contribution to variable costs, or £99 cheapest return ticket. Guess which I chose), increasing staff costs even further will simply make the problem worse.

I've not had a pay rise for years either - I'm also aware that my options should this become a problem are to apply for other jobs should I wish. I was informed of my salary when I signed the contract!

 

[Class 170101]

Zero hours contracts would be absolutely perfect for most rail industry employers-driver wise it means no paying for spare cover, no overtime, no cancelations due to no crew, no union power etc but it would also mean yet another workforce who struggle to get mortgages, support a family, lead a half decent lifestyle etc.

Would zero hours contracts really result in no spare cover? I cannot see that working in practise because you only need sickness and with no driver immediately on site would you get a zero hours contracted driver at literally a moments notice?

 

[ComUtoR]

... would you get a zero hours contracted driver at literally a moments notice?

Short answer. Yes.

There has been plenty of occasions where a Driver has been called in on the day for RDW. Having a system in place where a small number of Drivers can be pulled in on "zero hours" contracts and can be placed "on call" on a days basis then yes, I believe it could work.

We have a few Drivers working at our place on a part time basis. Even an increase of part time could allow an increased and flexible workforce.

 

[DarloRich]

How about a 5% per annum pay rise?

We can raise fares even more to pay for it and then eventually just shut the entire railway down once everyone has given up with bothering.

I've pretty much found myself priced off the railways these days (latest - trip from Devon to Croydon and return next month, £45 in fuel + £6.50 parking + £5 contribution to variable costs, or £99 cheapest return ticket. Guess which I chose), increasing staff costs even further will simply make the problem worse.

I've not had a pay rise for years either - I'm also aware that my options should this become a problem are to apply for other jobs should I wish. I was informed of my salary when I signed the contract!

you aren't really grasping the concept are you.......................

 

[ComUtoR]

How about a 5% per annum pay rise?

Yes please.

We can raise fares even more to pay for it and then eventually just shut the entire railway down once everyone has given up with bothering.

Supply and demand rules would push down prices. They already do. Advanced fares, Family savers, Student discount, Plus bus, etc. etc.

I've pretty much found myself priced off the railways these days (latest - trip from Devon to Croydon and return next month, £45 in fuel + £6.50 parking + £5 contribution to variable costs, or £99 cheapest return ticket. Guess which I chose), increasing staff costs even further will simply make the problem worse.

I get a staff discount and still use the car. It is not always a financial decision.

I've not had a pay rise for years either - I'm also aware that my options should this become a problem are to apply for other jobs should I wish. I was informed of my salary when I signed the contract!

What point are you trying to make here ? Should the whole country have mandated (%) pay rises across the board or should each sector decide a competitive salary based on labour demand, qualifications and skill level, responsibilities, benefit packages, bonus and commission levels or whatever else dictates the wage/salary ?

 

[A-driver]

How about a 5% per annum pay rise?

We can raise fares even more to pay for it and then eventually just shut the entire railway down once everyone has given up with bothering.

I've pretty much found myself priced off the railways these days (latest - trip from Devon to Croydon and return next month, £45 in fuel + £6.50 parking + £5 contribution to variable costs, or £99 cheapest return ticket. Guess which I chose), increasing staff costs even further will simply make the problem worse.

I've not had a pay rise for years either - I'm also aware that my options should this become a problem are to apply for other jobs should I wish. I was informed of my salary when I signed the contract!

Well all you have done in that post is show how little you know and understand about these kind of matters.

Pointless post.

 

[Goatboy]

As an outsider to the industry I'm sure I am missing much of the picture. As this is a debate I'm more than happy for you to explain what I'm missing and why I'm wrong and I'll change my opinion if it sounds reasonable.

What is so different about the rail industry that strike action is justified when you don't get a pay rise when in other industries it simply doesn't work like this?

 

[DarloRich]

As an outsider to the industry I'm sure I am missing much of the picture. As this is a debate I'm more than happy for you to explain what I'm missing and why I'm wrong and I'll change my opinion if it sounds reasonable.

What is so different about the rail industry that strike action is justified when you don't get a pay rise when in other industries it simply doesn't work like this?

because unlike many industries the railway workers haven't meekly rolled over and accepted whatever crumbs are tossed to them. They have fought to maintain good conditions. But you know that.