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Role of Conductor and Revenue Protection Officers

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Mathew S

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I'm not sure or not if the rules stipulate that if you have a card, you must use it (if the facility is available), or face a penalty fare / prosecution.
That would simply be a non-starter in my opinion.

I always thought that the rule was that if there was a ticket office you had to use it (or were at best getting an undiscounted single/return onboard), but if it was just a machine, you could but didn't have to, so could by all tickets onboard. Though not sure if that's a TOC or national rule.

Another problem where some stations lack machines or offices, is that if it's busy and the guard doesn't get round to you, the ticket selling facilities provided before the barrier at termini are often limited with long queues. Which I understand as a disincentive to chancers, but it's not great for those legitimately travelling from unstaffed stations.

I think the rules are pretty clear: if there's an opportunity to buy the ticket you wish to purchase before you board then you must do so. Failure to do so, in a penalty fare area, leaves you liable to a penalty fare.
By definition, if you have a card, there's a card only machine, and the machine is both working and sells the ticket you're after, you have to use it because it is an opportunity to purchase a ticket. If you don't, you're liable for a penalty (in a designated area, obviously).
I agree that this is a huge change for many from how it's been for a lot of years. I agree that it's been poorly implemented. But, as I read them, them's the rules.
 
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woodmally

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Thanks for all your comments on this.

It does sound like conductors are placed in an impossible situation in trying to maintain a balance between issuing tickets and warning passengers about the conditions of travel are.

Maybe it would be better if RPI only checked tickets at station entries and exits? Leave the checking of tickets on trains to the conductor?
This has been done regularly at Nottingham. I commute from Sheffield to Nottingham every day and if you get the Northern rail that gets in at around 8am they are 50% of the time checking tickets. Which is good. However Sheffield station tried it but with the walkway to the tram station. If you ever have a bit of time google Residents against the station closure Sheffield. There was a long winded campaign against it as it was also a thoroughfare that was bought by the council. This has since died down and stopped now.
 

woodmally

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Doesn't work. I don't go to work to get aggro for other people's poorly implemented bad ideas. I'm a guard not an RPI.
Thats fine I do appreciate where you are coming from however I wouldnt do that myself. Its only a matter of time before the commuter you sell a ticket to gets a fine and then sees you on a future train. They wont exactly be thrilled to bits.
 

800002

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I think the rules are pretty clear: if there's an opportunity to buy the ticket you wish to purchase before you board then you must do so. Failure to do so, in a penalty fare area, leaves you liable to a penalty fare.
By definition, if you have a card, there's a card only machine, and the machine is both working and sells the ticket you're after, you have to use it because it is an opportunity to purchase a ticket. If you don't, you're liable for a penalty (in a designated area, obviously).
I agree that this is a huge change for many from how it's been for a lot of years. I agree that it's been poorly implemented. But, as I read them, them's the rules.
I think the last thing I'm going to say on the matter is: paying by card is not always an option for people (regardless if the machiene is accepting cards or not). I, for one, carry cash for a reason, and don't always have the ability to use my card. Cash is my only option.
I can't be compelled to pay more because I've not used a card only facility.
 

LowLevel

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Thats fine I do appreciate where you are coming from however I wouldnt do that myself. Its only a matter of time before the commuter you sell a ticket to gets a fine and then sees you on a future train. They wont exactly be thrilled to bits.

I've been at it long enough to know the crack to be fair!
 

sheff1

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I think the rules are pretty clear: if there's an opportunity to buy the ticket you wish to purchase before you board then you must do so. Failure to do so, in a penalty fare area, leaves you liable to a penalty fare.
By definition, if you have a card, there's a card only machine, and the machine is both working and sells the ticket you're after, you have to use it because it is an opportunity to purchase a ticket. If you don't, you're liable for a penalty (in a designated area, obviously).
I agree that this is a huge change for many from how it's been for a lot of years. I agree that it's been poorly implemented. But, as I read them, them's the rules.

That has been debunked on here many times.
 

Bertie the bus

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Yesterday two Revenue Protection Officers passed through the train and the conductor stayed in their own area. Now, ofcourse, the situation was different and fines were issued to all those passengers who were reasonably expecting to buy a ticket on the train from the conductor.

So, what is going wrong with the system? Should SouthEastern conductors stop selling tickets onboard to passengers as it is putting passengers at risk of being fined if the next day there is an RPO onboard instead?
I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for the pay when challenged lot if they get the occasional Penalty Fare. They're probably still up on the deal anyway as I doubt they post the fare to the TOC when the guard doesn't come through or their ticket machine isn't working.

Though when I used to commute on SWT they had a good method. You always knew when there were RPIs about as the guard would make an announcement that anybody without a ticket should go and see him/her to buy one. 5 minutes later the RPIs would come through and anybody without a ticket had no defence whatsoever.
 

MrEd

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Guards get commission for selling tickets so it’s to their advantage to allow it. Do they also get commission for issuing penalty fares?

Guards cannot issue penalty fares (at least in most TOCs that I know), so no. I’m not sure whether RPIs earn commission on penalty fares, or any tickets that they may sell to passengers with legitimate reasons for not having them.
 

Mathew S

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I think the last thing I'm going to say on the matter is: paying by card is not always an option for people (regardless if the machiene is accepting cards or not). I, for one, carry cash for a reason, and don't always have the ability to use my card. Cash is my only option.
I can't be compelled to pay more because I've not used a card only facility.
I would say then that that's not an opportunity to pay. In that sense the rules are patently tsupid because a guard/RPI can't possibly know whether that's the case or not. And so has to just sell you a ticket.
However stupid and / or unenforceable they are, though, they're still the rules.
 

Bertie the bus

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Must say I've never seen a convincing argument against it. That's certainly how the rules are published in my local area.
That isn’t how the rules are published in your area. It might be how you choose to interpret them but it isn’t how Northern choose to publish them.
 

causton

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That isn’t how the rules are published in your area. It might be how you choose to interpret them but it isn’t how Northern choose to publish them.

From the Rail Delivery Group Penalty Fares Guidelines:

"An example of when there are no facilities to purchase may be when a ticket office closed and ticket machines only capable of credit/debit card payments when a customer wishes to pay cash. These circumstances can be verified as part of the appeal process."
 

MrEd

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It’s the same setup on the Robin Hood line, machines at all the stations and notices about penalty fares etc but the majority of people buy on the train with no apparent issue.

East Midlands Trains have had this silly policy for years; the situation on the Matlock line is particularly bizarre, as only Duffield and Belper are penalty fares stations, and passengers are very much in the habit of buying tickets from the conductor on the train even from Duffield and Belper (it does not help that the ticket machines at these stations are very erratic, and they have no staff). The conductor gives no impression that they are doing anything wrong, despite the existence of a PF policy and the clear presence of signage at Belper (I personally think the signage at Duffield is insufficient, but it is still officially a penalty fares station). They even allow discounted tickets to be sold despite the presence of ticket machines (and on the occasions when these are in full working order).

On the four or five occasions in a year when RPIs do venture down this route, they come down on the Duffield and Belper passengers like a ton of bricks, and I’ve observed (it was my local line for some years) the occasional very nasty argument between a passenger and two RPIs, one of which resulted in BTP presence on arrival at Derby... ‘But I bought my ticket on the train yesterday...’ ‘You can’t, it’s not allowed, Belper is a penalty fares station...’ ‘But if I bought it on the train yesterday, why can’t I today?’ ‘Because it’s against the law...’ Cue a sickening expletive ridden rant from the irate passenger, who then spat at the poor hapless RPIs who were simply enforcing policy (‘we don’t make the rules, we just have to enforce them’), resulting in the summoning of BTP. While the passenger’s behaviour in that instance was absolutely disgusting, and they were quite rightly prosecuted, I don’t think inconsistency of this kind (you can buy your tickets on the train some days but not others, depending on the grade of the staff member who happens to be doing the inspection) assists the travelling public and a much clearer, more unequivocal and much fairer policy is needed for penalty fares areas. I sometimes feel that UK TOCs could learn a lot from their continental European counterparts if they want to be serious but fair in enforcing penalty fares.

Greater Anglia have achieved a sensible compromise, I think: guards will still sell tickets in PF areas (on the Norwich main line, for instance), but will only sell anytime fares, and will draw a passenger’s attention very clearly to a penalty fares warning printed on the back of a ticket. This to me seems a much fairer and clearer policy, and more helpful to the passenger.
 

800002

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These circumstances can be verified as part of the appeal process
So that basically says - fine them anyway, and they have to appeal it.
Removes the need for 'exercising discretion' at least.

Thanks for clarifying with that!
 

causton

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So that basically says - fine them anyway, and they have to appeal it.
Removes the need for 'exercising discretion' at least.

Thanks for clarifying with that!

I wouldn't necessarily say it definitely means that - I would say it means for example if you need to prove a booking office was closed and can't do that straight away. At a station where there is no ticket office and only a card-only machine, then it might not need a PF issuing then going to appeal.

Edit: The original quote was a footnote at the end of a sentence stating that operators could "sell the correct ticket if facilities were not available at the start of a journey".
 

Bertie the bus

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No, not fine them anyway. I can only speak with any authority about Northern, and their literature states, in a nutshell:
Ticket office open - buy a ticket before boarding
Ticket office closed or no ticket office - if you are paying by card you must use the TVM. If you are paying by cash you must obtain a Promise to Pay and buy a ticket at the first opportunity.

Absolutely nothing about if you have a card on your person you must use it.
 

NoOnesFool

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I've always viewed guards selling tickets as a last resort to minimise unpaid fares. Ideally, everyone would have a ticket before boarding but in reality for whatever reason, some people don't and as most guards (apart from on South Eastern) aren't Penalty Fare collectors, it's the only way to ensure the TOC gets paid for providing the service.

Revenue Protection Officers are a great deterrent and itsi certainly noticeable how many more passengers buy before boarding on Penalty Fare routes. The issue is that there are still many stations that aren't covered by the Penalty Fare scheme.
 

Antman

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I think the rules are pretty clear: if there's an opportunity to buy the ticket you wish to purchase before you board then you must do so. Failure to do so, in a penalty fare area, leaves you liable to a penalty fare.
By definition, if you have a card, there's a card only machine, and the machine is both working and sells the ticket you're after, you have to use it because it is an opportunity to purchase a ticket. If you don't, you're liable for a penalty (in a designated area, obviously).
I agree that this is a huge change for many from how it's been for a lot of years. I agree that it's been poorly implemented. But, as I read them, them's the rules.

To suggest that anybody who has a credit or debit card has to use it is ridiculous, if people want to pay cash for whatever reason they are perfectly entitled to do so. These machines don't take cash at quiet stations because it wouldn't be cost effective to empty them, that's the TOC's choice and they only have themselves to blame if people don't have tickets.
 

Antman

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I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for the pay when challenged lot if they get the occasional Penalty Fare. They're probably still up on the deal anyway as I doubt they post the fare to the TOC when the guard doesn't come through or their ticket machine isn't working.

Though when I used to commute on SWT they had a good method. You always knew when there were RPIs about as the guard would make an announcement that anybody without a ticket should go and see him/her to buy one. 5 minutes later the RPIs would come through and anybody without a ticket had no defence whatsoever.

Surely the guard should come to the passenger and not the other way round?
 

Mathew S

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That isn’t how the rules are published in your area. It might be how you choose to interpret them but it isn’t how Northern choose to publish them.
It really is. To be specific they say:
1. Buy before you board if there is an opportunity to do so.
2. If you aren't able to do 1. because the ticket machine takes cards only and you don't have one that you can use, get a promise to pay.
3. If you haven't done 1 or 2 you could be liable for a penalty fare.

I'm not quite sure how that could be any clearer?
 

RPI

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Although saying that GWR have the grade of “Ticket Examiner” who come under the Revenue Protection department and issue UPFNs and Penalty fares as well as selling tickets.
Correct (although guards also issue UFN'S) but GWR ticket examiners are not expected to issue PF'S as the norm, it was an extra tool given to them during the harmonisation of the ATE (wessex) and TE (Thames trains) grades, they can issue them Willy nilly if they like and some do but whereas it's an expectation for RPI'S to deal with a straight forward no ticket issue by means of a PF, the TE'S can do either, I think the actual wording (dont quote me) in the harmonisation package was that PF'S can then be used for regular offenders and when assisting at gatelines or blocks.
Although this sounds a bit wishy washy you have to remember that TE'S are diagrammed to assist on busy trains to ensure all revenue is collected
 

Mathew S

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To suggest that anybody who has a credit or debit card has to use it is ridiculous
No, it's not. Any business is perfectly entitled to specify how it wants to receive payment. There are plenty of places in Manchester, for example, where you can only pay with card.
 

RPI

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I always thought that the rule was that if there was a ticket office you had to use it (or were at best getting an undiscounted single/return onboard), but if it was just a machine, you could but didn't have to, so could by all tickets onboard. Though not sure if that's a TOC or national rule.

Another problem where some stations lack machines or offices, is that if it's busy and the guard doesn't get round to you, the ticket selling facilities provided before the barrier at termini are often limited with long queues. Which I understand as a disincentive to chancers, but it's not great for those legitimately travelling from unstaffed stations.
Not at all, we routinely issue PF'S from stations that just have a TVM, there are just more mitigating circumstances to have to take into account such as what payment methods are accepted, whether it was actually working, a customer's disability that could effect their usage of such machine
 

RPI

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No, it's not. Any business is perfectly entitled to specify how it wants to receive payment. There are plenty of places in Manchester, for example, where you can only pay with card.
Yes and No, the customer is also entitled to choose how they pay and as long as it's an acceptable method it's their choice, this creates it's own problems as there are plenty of changed a who board without a ticket "I've only got cash mate" holding a tenner, even though you know they're changing there's nothing I can do other than sell a ticket (unless there was a facility to take cash at the station), whilst cash is still an accepted payment method on the railway then a customer can choose to pay that way
 

LowLevel

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East Midlands Trains have had this silly policy for years; the situation on the Matlock line is particularly bizarre, as only Duffield and Belper are penalty fares stations, and passengers are very much in the habit of buying tickets from the conductor on the train even from Duffield and Belper (it does not help that the ticket machines at these stations are very erratic, and they have no staff). The conductor gives no impression that they are doing anything wrong, despite the existence of a PF policy and the clear presence of signage at Belper (I personally think the signage at Duffield is insufficient, but it is still officially a penalty fares station). They even allow discounted tickets to be sold despite the presence of ticket machines (and on the occasions when these are in full working order).

On the four or five occasions in a year when RPIs do venture down this route, they come down on the Duffield and Belper passengers like a ton of bricks, and I’ve observed (it was my local line for some years) the occasional very nasty argument between a passenger and two RPIs, one of which resulted in BTP presence on arrival at Derby... ‘But I bought my ticket on the train yesterday...’ ‘You can’t, it’s not allowed, Belper is a penalty fares station...’ ‘But if I bought it on the train yesterday, why can’t I today?’ ‘Because it’s against the law...’ Cue a sickening expletive ridden rant from the irate passenger, who then spat at the poor hapless RPIs who were simply enforcing policy (‘we don’t make the rules, we just have to enforce them’), resulting in the summoning of BTP. While the passenger’s behaviour in that instance was absolutely disgusting, and they were quite rightly prosecuted, I don’t think inconsistency of this kind (you can buy your tickets on the train some days but not others, depending on the grade of the staff member who happens to be doing the inspection) assists the travelling public and a much clearer, more unequivocal and much fairer policy is needed for penalty fares areas. I sometimes feel that UK TOCs could learn a lot from their continental European counterparts if they want to be serious but fair in enforcing penalty fares.

Greater Anglia have achieved a sensible compromise, I think: guards will still sell tickets in PF areas (on the Norwich main line, for instance), but will only sell anytime fares, and will draw a passenger’s attention very clearly to a penalty fares warning printed on the back of a ticket. This to me seems a much fairer and clearer policy, and more helpful to the passenger.

As I mentioned earlier, this was a paytrain line for well over 40 years. Old habits die hard. Neither staff nor passengers are remotely interested in penalty fares. It costs the staff money and the passengers don't want to use the machines.

What it has done is damage the staff motivation to do their job - previously the conductors would be up and down the Matlock trains like a yo-yo selling tickets and making a decent amount in commission. Now they're expected to go down, get into conflict selling undiscounted local fares or college kid's B Line discounts because the machines don't offer them, and make less money without the company doing anything to mitigate that. Consequently a lot just don't bother.

This 'penalty fares everywhere' policy is rubbish.
 

Antman

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No, it's not. Any business is perfectly entitled to specify how it wants to receive payment. There are plenty of places in Manchester, for example, where you can only pay with card.

That's up to them, the railway industry doesn't have that option.
 

cuccir

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No, it's not. Any business is perfectly entitled to specify how it wants to receive payment. There are plenty of places in Manchester, for example, where you can only pay with card.

But the the railway advertises in advance that you can pay with cash. All it warns is that
Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment
but - and I Am Not A Lawyer - without saying what those options are I don't think they'd have a very good argument in court for prosecuting someone who failed to buy a ticket on the grounds that they wanted to pay with cash, even if they had other payment methods.

With regards to the core element of this: I agree, conductors are between a rock and a hard place, but beyond having multiple TVMs on all platforms which accept cards, cash and sell all tickets, it's hard to see a solution. Perhaps on-board tickets could be sold on stock with Bylaw 18 printed on the back of them... it's only 138 words and the new crappy paper tickets would probably have space; it would at least mean that anyone buying on board could not say that they hadn't seen this regulation.
 

70014IronDuke

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As I mentioned earlier, this was a paytrain line for well over 40 years. Old habits die hard. Neither staff nor passengers are remotely interested in penalty fares. It costs the staff money and the passengers don't want to use the machines.

What it has done is damage the staff motivation to do their job - previously the conductors would be up and down the Matlock trains like a yo-yo selling tickets and making a decent amount in commission. Now they're expected to go down, get into conflict selling undiscounted local fares or college kid's B Line discounts because the machines don't offer them, and make less money without the company doing anything to mitigate that. Consequently a lot just don't bother.

This 'penalty fares everywhere' policy is rubbish.

EMT management, are you reading this?
 

muz379

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without saying what those options are I don't think they'd have a very good argument in court for prosecuting someone who failed to buy a ticket on the grounds that they wanted to pay with cash, even if they had other payment methods.
I completely agree , as a conductor if someone boards with cash but I see when they open their wallet/purse that they have multiple bank cards it is not for me to suggest they should have used one of those so cannot obtain the cheap fare they are entitled to had they bought it from the machine .

Only time I will discuss anything to do with payment method is if my card reader is broken and someone tries to pay with a card , then I will suggest I can take cash or they can buy one at their next opportunity .
 

LowLevel

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EMT management, are you reading this?

It wasn't their decision in the first place. It was a DfT direct award requirement some years ago initially enabled by some unreliable Permit to Travel machines which we paid in in large bundles, subsequently replaced by ticket vending machines which still don't sell the full range of tickets, frequently fail and are insufficient in number for the amount of people needing to use them at peak times.

Sales commission is there to incentivise staff. It goes without saying that initiatives that reduce it while increasing conflict have the opposite effect. The Matlock line used to be particularly lucrative for conductors, now most of the more expensive tickets are bought in advance or on the machines leaving the conductors to mop up afterwards - literally nothing has been done to get them to buy in to the scheme.

I personally always work my trains religiously but it's a fact that different people are motivated by different things and a lot of the more financially motivated guards, formerly very proactive, took the reduction in their income as a personal affront. Particularly when as part of the TVM introduction the company decided to remove our assistant ticket examiner friends as well.
 
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