Role of Conductor and Revenue Protection Officers

[TrainBoy98]

Not silly at all. When Arriva took over the Northern franchise, they committed to installing ticket machines at the vast majority of unstaffed stations. Most of these are card-only (i.e. you can't pay in cash). They also have implemented penalty fare schemes which include these stations.
This is obviously a problem for customers who are unable to pay by card, as they would not be able to buy a ticket before boarding. So, the (rather elegant I think) solution if you wish to pay by cash is that you choose your ticket from the machine like anybody else but, at the end of the process, if you choose to pay in cash, the machine prints a "Promise to Pay" voucher. You then board the train with this voucher and pay, in cash, for your actual ticket from the guard.
The idea is that it allows penalty fare schemes to be implemented (a good thing) yet still allows people to pay with cash.

Thank you, this sounds like a good idea in theory, and maybe some other TOCs should trial it to see if it would increase revenues.
I know a few "friends" of mine will just see a machine doesn't take card and risk it, but maybe it would help more genuine people (there are still some out there!) who simple can't use a card for whatever reason.

 

[GrimShady]

Which is achieved by the guard only selling undiscounted Anytime tickets, which is the official line on some TOCs - but of course even this runs the risk of people kicking up a fuss.

In fact, on my local DOO line, ScotRail's revenue protection people probably sell as many tickets as the stations do, and quite happily sell discounted tickets. As will the gateline staff. Attempting to enforce the buy-before-boarding policy would result in a lot of very unhappy passengers.

Agreed. Who cares when you buy the ticket! The only thing that matters is you'll need one at some point be that before boarding or before going through the barriers.

I've been in the situation before at a number of stations where the TVM screen has been dodgy for various reasons (rain, dirt, faulty screens), other passengers taking forever trying to operate one, just in time to catch the train etc.

 

[Antman]

Neither do attendees at sports stadiums which are going card only.

Again hardly a reasonable comparison, tickets generally have to be purchased in advance anyway. I can't see any liklihood of cash not being accepted for train in the foreseeable future.

 

[Mountain Man]

Again hardly a reasonable comparison, tickets generally have to be purchased in advance anyway. I can't see any liklihood of cash not being accepted for train in the foreseeable future.

Its an entirely reasonable comparison.

The economy is becoming cashless. Whilst in the short term, cash will remain on the railways, it's entirely reasonable to think that it will become less easy and convenient to use it, and that you won't necessarily get the full range of tickets

 

[Solent&Wessex]

All this talk of Guards enforcing Penalty Fares and not just simply selling tickets and that a strict buy before boarding policy applies, no exceptions, to ensure consistency...

Here is a real life scenario:

Passenger boards train an unmanned station, which has a working Card Only TVM, which other passengers have used successfully

As I approach he immediately asks for a Single to Town station 9 minutes away (which has a ticket office but no ticket barriers) and offers his card as payment.

Do I?

a) Sell him the ticket that he requires, accept his card payment (even though he could and should have used the TVM before boarding like others). This takes less than a minute and gets his money and allows me to continue to go down and check or collect fares from others, some of whom are paying in cash.

Or

b) Because this forum wants everything done consistently and rules for purchase applied, I say he can't buy a ticket and a higher fare or penalty applies, as he should have used the working TVM. He refuses to pay anything other than his £3.10 single. I then say I'll have to issue a notice and ask for his name and address. He says he has no ID so I have to use our online address checking service to verify his address. He provides a false address. There is then a discussion around him providing correct details. He refuses to provide any further details. We are now arriving at Town station and I have to open the doors. The passenger now gets off and walks away without paying anything. Other passengers who I could have seen down the train had I not been wasting time with this passenger also get off and walk away without paying.

What would you prefer and expect me to do?

And before everyone says "there should be revenue protection on the train", what could revenue have done which I could not? If they get off at Town station because they haven't finished dealing with the passenger they are then left behind and no longer on the train.

It doesn't matter how many TVMs or ticket offices you have, unless every station has barriers and an army of revenue staff and police at all times you will never ever be able to have this policy applied consistently.

 

[Antman]

All this talk of Guards enforcing Penalty Fares and not just simply selling tickets and that a strict buy before boarding policy applies, no exceptions, to ensure consistency...

Here is a real life scenario:

Passenger boards train an unmanned station, which has a working Card Only TVM, which other passengers have used successfully

As I approach he immediately asks for a Single to Town station 9 minutes away (which has a ticket office but no ticket barriers) and offers his card as payment.

Do I?

a) Sell him the ticket that he requires, accept his card payment (even though he could and should have used the TVM before boarding like others). This takes less than a minute and gets his money and allows me to continue to go down and check or collect fares from others, some of whom are paying in cash.

Or

b) Because this forum wants everything done consistently and rules for purchase applied, I say he can't buy a ticket and a higher fare or penalty applies, as he should have used the working TVM. He refuses to pay anything other than his £3.10 single. I then say I'll have to issue a notice and ask for his name and address. He says he has no ID so I have to use our online address checking service to verify his address. He provides a false address. There is then a discussion around him providing correct details. He refuses to provide any further details. We are now arriving at Town station and I have to open the doors. The passenger now gets off and walks away without paying anything. Other passengers who I could have seen down the train had I not been wasting time with this passenger also get off and walk away without paying.

What would you prefer and expect me to do?

And before everyone says "there should be revenue protection on the train", what could revenue have done which I could not? If they get off at Town station because they haven't finished dealing with the passenger they are then left behind and no longer on the train.

It doesn't matter how many TVMs or ticket offices you have, unless every station has barriers and an army of revenue staff and police at all times you will never ever be able to have this policy applied consistently.

Very well summed up and it would be option A for me every time. I suppose you could politely ask him why he didn't buy a ticket from the TVM if he has a card although obviously if he wanted to pay cash he wouldn't have been able to buy one anyway.

 

[Mountain Man]

B.

And communicate ahead so that staff / BTP are there to apprehend him.

If we keep letting people get away with it, it's hardly surprising people keep fare dodging.

If people felt a real worry of a significant punishment they would stop. The being nice approach isn't working

 

[Mathew S]

All this talk of Guards enforcing Penalty Fares and not just simply selling tickets and that a strict buy before boarding policy applies, no exceptions, to ensure consistency...

Here is a real life scenario:

Passenger boards train an unmanned station, which has a working Card Only TVM, which other passengers have used successfully

As I approach he immediately asks for a Single to Town station 9 minutes away (which has a ticket office but no ticket barriers) and offers his card as payment.

Do I?

a) Sell him the ticket that he requires, accept his card payment (even though he could and should have used the TVM before boarding like others). This takes less than a minute and gets his money and allows me to continue to go down and check or collect fares from others, some of whom are paying in cash.

Or

b) Because this forum wants everything done consistently and rules for purchase applied, I say he can't buy a ticket and a higher fare or penalty applies, as he should have used the working TVM. He refuses to pay anything other than his £3.10 single. I then say I'll have to issue a notice and ask for his name and address. He says he has no ID so I have to use our online address checking service to verify his address. He provides a false address. There is then a discussion around him providing correct details. He refuses to provide any further details. We are now arriving at Town station and I have to open the doors. The passenger now gets off and walks away without paying anything. Other passengers who I could have seen down the train had I not been wasting time with this passenger also get off and walk away without paying.

What would you prefer and expect me to do?

And before everyone says "there should be revenue protection on the train", what could revenue have done which I could not? If they get off at Town station because they haven't finished dealing with the passenger they are then left behind and no longer on the train.

It doesn't matter how many TVMs or ticket offices you have, unless every station has barriers and an army of revenue staff and police at all times you will never ever be able to have this policy applied consistently.

Simple, there should be barriers at said town station, and he can be dealt with appropriately there. This is only a problem where passengers are travelling both from and to unstaffed, unbariered stations, the total number of which is a small percentage of overall journeys, and should be an even smaller number as more and more barriers are rolled out.

 

[Tony43]

To be fair some people may not know they have to buy a ticket first, untill joining this forum I did not for years have simply got on train and bought ticket from guard not once did any guard point out I should have bought in advance

 

[Solent&Wessex]

B.

And communicate ahead so that staff / BTP are there to apprehend him.

If we keep letting people get away with it, it's hardly surprising people keep fare dodging.

If people felt a real worry of a significant punishment they would stop. The being nice approach isn't working

Ok.

So the journey takes 9 minutes. The staffed station is single staffed with 1 person in a ticket office. The nearest BTP office is some way away.

By time I actually get to the passenger there is only 5 minutes of the 9 minute journey left. At least 1 minute is wasted with me saying I can't sell the single ticket he wants and he has to pay a £20 penalty fare for not buying first. So that's 4 minutes maximum remaining.

Which staff and police do you propose I phone to get him "apprehended".

The chance of getting police to attend in that timescale is 0%.

The chance of the single ticket office clerk coming out to deal with the issue on their own is also 0%.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Simple, there should be barriers at said town station, and he can be dealt with appropriately there. This is only a problem where passengers are travelling both from and to unstaffed, unbariered stations, the total number of which is a small percentage of overall journeys, and should be an even smaller number as more and more barriers are rolled out.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of stations are, and will remain, un barriered. There can often be no economic case for installing barriers at many stations, even if they are already staffed. Often the physical layout of the station prevents it, or the level of train service provided is not sufficient. The costs of gating an otherwise open station which might only have 1 or 2 trains per hour each way is phenomenal, and thats before you even think about employing sufficient staff to man the barriers all day every day.


I think that lots of people here need to be realistic.

 

[Antman]

Ok.

So the journey takes 9 minutes. The staffed station is single staffed with 1 person in a ticket office. The nearest BTP office is some way away.

By time I actually get to the passenger there is only 5 minutes of the 9 minute journey left. At least 1 minute is wasted with me saying I can't sell the single ticket he wants and he has to pay a £20 penalty fare for not buying first. So that's 4 minutes maximum remaining.

Which staff and police do you propose I phone to get him "apprehended".

The chance of getting police to attend in that timescale is 0%.

The chance of the single ticket office clerk coming out to deal with the issue on their own is also 0%.

Exactly and it makes me laugh this notion that there are all these revenue inspectors and BTP waiting at strategic locations for a call to spring into action.

The passenger in your scenario is happy to pay so what else would you do than accept his payment?

 

[tony_mac]

The passenger in your scenario is happy to pay so what else would you do than accept his payment?

Maybe at least tell him what the rules are...
It can cause a great deal of misery and stress for people who end up facing prosecution - just because they continue doing what they see every day on the train.
I understand that it's easier not to, and you don't have to deal with those being prosecuted, but it's ultimately not fair on them.
Merseyrail staff do warn people that they will be fined if they get caught by inspectors, it's not impossible to do. Although they do seem to also have more revenue staff than most operators.

But, this whole argument has been done a number of times before, there isn't an easy solution just around the corner.

 

[Antman]

Maybe at least tell him what the rules are...
It can cause a great deal of misery and stress for people who end up facing prosecution - just because they continue doing what they see every day on the train.
I understand that it's easier not to, and you don't have to deal with those being prosecuted, but it's ultimately not fair on them.
Merseyrail staff do warn people that they will be fined if they get caught by inspectors, it's not impossible to do. Although they do seem to also have more revenue staff than most operators.

But, this whole argument has been done a number of times before, there isn't an easy solution just around the corner.

Yes you could tell him that he should have purchased a ticket from the machine if he has a card although obviously if he didn't have a card he couldn't have because the machine doesn't take cash.

Then of course there is the fact that some people find TVM's quite bewildering and prefer a human interaction.

 

[tony_mac]

Then of course there is the fact that some people find TVM's quite bewildering and prefer a human interaction.

I quite agree, and I don't think those people should be at risk of penalty fares or prosecution. But they are.

 

[Mountain Man]

Ok.

So the journey takes 9 minutes. The staffed station is single staffed with 1 person in a ticket office. The nearest BTP office is some way away.

By time I actually get to the passenger there is only 5 minutes of the 9 minute journey left. At least 1 minute is wasted with me saying I can't sell the single ticket he wants and he has to pay a £20 penalty fare for not buying first. So that's 4 minutes maximum remaining.

Which staff and police do you propose I phone to get him "apprehended".

The chance of getting police to attend in that timescale is 0%.

The chance of the single ticket office clerk coming out to deal with the issue on their own is also 0%.

So you hold the train until backup arrive.

If people know the issue is actually going to taken seriously, and offenders properly punished then they'll stop.

Raise the penalty fare to £1000, and if not paid in 7 days, criminal prosecution. Backed up by people being thrown off trains, and trains held until backup arrives if necessary and the problem will be solved overnight.

The soft touch approach clearly isn't working.

 

[Bungle158]

"Hold the train". Delay Attribution will be thrilled with this.

 

[Antman]

So you hold the train until backup arrive.

If people know the issue is actually going to taken seriously, and offenders properly punished then they'll stop.

Raise the penalty fare to £1000, and if not paid in 7 days, criminal prosecution. Backed up by people being thrown off trains, and trains held until backup arrives if necessary and the problem will be solved overnight.

The soft touch approach clearly isn't working.

Sorry but this is getting ridiculous now, you hold the train until back up arrives? Seriously?

 

[Mountain Man]

Sorry but this is getting ridiculous now, you hold the train until back up arrives? Seriously?

Yep. You'd only have to do it for a couple of weeks and the problem would stop.

Make the punishment a real deterrent

 

[TEW]

You've paid your fare; what you rather? Being delayed at some random station for some indeterminate length of time, or one person gets away without paying this time? Which option is really worse for the 95% that pay the correct fare?

 

[Antman]

Yep. You'd only have to do it for a couple of weeks and the problem would stop.

Make the punishment a real deterrent

A couple of weeks? The whole rail network would be at a standstill in a couple of hours!

 

[Mountain Man]

A couple of weeks? The whole rail network would be at a standstill in a couple of hours!

No it wouldn't. At a manned station there would be no delay

 

[Mountain Man]

You've paid your fare; what you rather? Being delayed at some random station for some indeterminate length of time, or one person gets away without paying this time? Which option is really worse for the 95% that pay the correct fare?

It isn't 1 person. Its massive numbers of fare evaders

 

[bunnahabhain]

The rules are not black and white, discretion is permitted, I know some folk cannot cope with discretion ever being used or shown as their interpretation of 'the rules' is rather rigid. As long as people pay up there's no issue, if that means it's a higher than normal fare such as an Anytime Single rather than the Off Peak Single then so be it.

 

[Antman]

No it wouldn't. At a manned station there would be no delay

And what are staff at these manned stations going to do that the guard can't do?

 

[Killingworth]

OK, another scenario based on observations between real stations.

The single TVM at Grindleford is down a long ramp to the Manchester bound platform. Most journeys originating there are down an equally long ramp to the Sheffield bound platform. Consequently not a few find themselves on the platform with no machine.

Train arrives and passenger boards ticketless. A dispute starts about the issue of tickets. The train arrives at Dore & Totley. The doors don't open. The signal is green to clear the single line section. The guard stands his ground. The dispute continues. After 2 or 3 minutes a truce is declared and doors are opened.

There's only one platform at D&T and one TVM which is heavily used and frequently out of order. Maybe 15 more join the train.

Guard returns to battle and finally sells ticket to Grindleford passenger and checks 5 of the D&T boarders in rear carriage. None who boarded at the last two stations in front carriage are checked. Train arrives late in Sheffield platform 2c with 4 minutes to turn round. Sheffield is not gated.

Guard and driver swap ends and depart on time.

Guard could have finished dealing with awkward passenger before releasing doors at D&T. That would have blocked the single line section for a following TPE service or an EMT in the opposite direction. It would also have lost a path onto the mainline into Sheffield, or delayed another northbound EMT or XC train there.

If the guard held the doors closed on arrival at Sheffield until the whole train was checked he'd have a lot of very unhappy people. The train would then miss its outbound path due to delays, and the knock on effects could be considerable.

Calling BTP might be a possibility, but at what point? How long would it take to explain? And how quickly could they drop everything for a fare evader?

In practice it's very common for tickets not to be fully checked on this section. Some get promise to pay tickets and don't go to the Sheffield booking office if they've avoided the guard.

Of course Northern could cordon off 2c at Sheffield, an East Midlands station, but that's not normally done. Holding the train anywhere en route would add to existing problems. Punctuality is so bad on the Hope Valley line that all stations are currently in the worst 100 in the country for that.

There are lots of ways to maximise revenue without blocking tracks. Ticket machines that work, are positioned where they're most needed, and are simpler to use. Encouraging more to use apps, season tickets, and online purchases will help.

On trains conspicuous spot checks by RPIs backing up guards may get the message through. Unfortunately for every one confused irregular traveller there will, sadly, be at least 5 more who are trying it on!

 

[Mountain Man]

And what are staff at these manned stations going to do that the guard can't do?

Have them arrested.

 

[Killingworth]

Have them arrested.

By who, and how do they detain the miscreants single handedly, and continue to fulfil the role they're supposed to be doing, until the arresting officer arrives, maybe an hour later?

 

[RPI]

OK, another scenario based on observations between real stations.

The single TVM at Grindleford is down a long ramp to the Manchester bound platform. Most journeys originating there are down an equally long ramp to the Sheffield bound platform. Consequently not a few find themselves on the platform with no machine.

Train arrives and passenger boards ticketless. A dispute starts about the issue of tickets. The train arrives at Dore & Totley. The doors don't open. The signal is green to clear the single line section. The guard stands his ground. The dispute continues. After 2 or 3 minutes a truce is declared and doors are opened.

There's only one platform at D&T and one TVM which is heavily used and frequently out of order. Maybe 15 more join the train.

Guard returns to battle and finally sells ticket to Grindleford passenger and checks 5 of the D&T boarders in rear carriage. None who boarded at the last two stations in front carriage are checked. Train arrives late in Sheffield platform 2c with 4 minutes to turn round. Sheffield is not gated.

Guard and driver swap ends and depart on time.

Guard could have finished dealing with awkward passenger before releasing doors at D&T. That would have blocked the single line section for a following TPE service or an EMT in the opposite direction. It would also have lost a path onto the mainline into Sheffield, or delayed another northbound EMT or XC train there.

If the guard held the doors closed on arrival at Sheffield until the whole train was checked he'd have a lot of very unhappy people. The train would then miss its outbound path due to delays, and the knock on effects could be considerable.

Calling BTP might be a possibility, but at what point? How long would it take to explain? And how quickly could they drop everything for a fare evader?

In practice it's very common for tickets not to be fully checked on this section. Some get promise to pay tickets and don't go to the Sheffield booking office if they've avoided the guard.

Of course Northern could cordon off 2c at Sheffield, an East Midlands station, but that's not normally done. Holding the train anywhere en route would add to existing problems. Punctuality is so bad on the Hope Valley line that all stations are currently in the worst 100 in the country for that.

There are lots of ways to maximise revenue without blocking tracks. Ticket machines that work, are positioned where they're most needed, and are simpler to use. Encouraging more to use apps, season tickets, and online purchases will help.

On trains conspicuous spot checks by RPIs backing up guards may get the message through. Unfortunately for every one confused irregular traveller there will, sadly, be at least 5 more who are trying it on!

As an RPI myself who works primarily in an area with guarded trains you're dead right, guards have so much more to deal with than tickets, on our patch we react to feedback from Conductors/Train Managers and Ticket Examiners mainly via WhatsApp groups etc.
I have the time to argue with someone for however long it takes, I can jump off with them at the next station to continue which means no delay to the train or other passengers and we can also follow things up, these days we have a mass of information available to us, we've successfully obtained details of people using Facebook and Twitter, again, RPI'S have the resources to do this.
Ultimately it's what the RPI role is there for and the guards know that any issues they can report to us to target.
What does help us is when guards sell a ticket but issue a warning to the customer even if just handing them one of our "yellow cards" which are penalty fare warnings, some guards even have a joke about it with the passenger saying if you get a second yellow you get a red

 

[cjmillsnun]

No it wouldn't. At a manned station there would be no delay

Are you having a laugh. The majority of stations have 2 or three platforms if you're lucky. Take a platform out with a held train and there will be delays. It is inevitable.