Rossobus

[RustySpoons]

Might be interesting to see the posts that created the response to but them into context.

In terms of the management of the route, has anything externally happened to affect the service? Improved rail?

https://twitter.com/Barbara1Buckley/status/1160121253375696898

There's a link the the full thread.

In terms of external factors affecting the route, not really. The train was blamed for cutting the Blackburn link, but the X43 competes with the [much faster and similarly priced] train from Burnley, and they actually ran a pretty intense advertising campaign for the X43 at the time. Nothing seems to have been done for the X41.

There were rumours from quite a few sources that the Ramsbottom diversion was only done to sweeten up councillors to help the Rosso sale to Transdev. They're only rumours, but I did hear the same thing from quite a few different people.

As Alex mentioned, reliability is a big issue too. More often than not the majority of vehicles on the X41 aren't RedEx's!

 

[duncombec]

The shock! The horror! Bus Company tells something approaching the truth on twitter!

Reading that thread through, it reads like a classic case from the "wrongly assumed facts" thread. The service is being deliberately run down. New vehicles grow on trees. There are 10 people on board (8 of whom are ENCTS holders), so it must be making enough money. My journey is quicker if I do x, so everybody else's must be as well, which is why the service isn't making any money.

It seems as though Transdev are damned if they do and damned if they don't...

 

[Stan Drews]

https://twitter.com/Barbara1Buckley/status/1160121253375696898

There's a link the the full thread.

In terms of external factors affecting the route, not really. The train was blamed for cutting the Blackburn link, but the X43 competes with the [much faster and similarly priced] train from Burnley, and they actually ran a pretty intense advertising campaign for the X43 at the time. Nothing seems to have been done for the X41.

There were rumours from quite a few sources that the Ramsbottom diversion was only done to sweeten up councillors to help the Rosso sale to Transdev. They're only rumours, but I did hear the same thing from quite a few different people.

As Alex mentioned, reliability is a big issue too. More often than not the majority of vehicles on the X41 aren't RedEx's!

It’s refreshing to see an operator being as open and honest on social media, and their comments certainly backs up what I was told about it being a loss maker for some considerable time. Sometimes people don’t understand that simply withdrawing the route would probably be the most cost effective solution for the operator.

 

[158756]

As Alex mentioned, reliability is a big issue too. More often than not the majority of vehicles on the X41 aren't RedEx's!

They're doing well today then. 4 branded buses (of 7 in total) out and about if the tracker on the app is correct, supplemented by a Pride of the North decker and, again if the app is correct, a Lancashire United B10BLE.

 

[darloscott]

It’s refreshing to see an operator being as open and honest on social media, and their comments certainly backs up what I was told about it being a loss maker for some considerable time. Sometimes people don’t understand that simply withdrawing the route would probably be the most cost effective solution for the operator.

From Transdev's point of view... how much money do you throw down a black hole in an attempt to get it to work, and indeed is there potential to recover that money further down the line. As soon as that tips into the 'no' category then it will be pulled. Personally I'm surprised it hasn't already.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

https://twitter.com/Barbara1Buckley/status/1160121253375696898

There's a link the the full thread.

In terms of external factors affecting the route, not really. The train was blamed for cutting the Blackburn link, but the X43 competes with the [much faster and similarly priced] train from Burnley, and they actually ran a pretty intense advertising campaign for the X43 at the time. Nothing seems to have been done for the X41.

There were rumours from quite a few sources that the Ramsbottom diversion was only done to sweeten up councillors to help the Rosso sale to Transdev. They're only rumours, but I did hear the same thing from quite a few different people.

As Alex mentioned, reliability is a big issue too. More often than not the majority of vehicles on the X41 aren't RedEx's!

I think the response "you're entitled to your opinion" is perhaps understandable when in response to the lady saying "it's profits before people". Then again, read her twitter feed and you'll see that perhaps she's not one for private enterprise....

I wouldn't put too much credence in rumours in general. The sweetener for the councillors was much more obvious in terms of the sale of the business and the disposal of the depot site.

As for reliability - the vehicles are still operating if not in the correct livery? I suspect that the reality is that the route during the off peak isn't washing its face with the odd fare payer and the some ENCTS passes. They've sought to reroute it and that has had some benefit (though it has disadvantaged some others), and you can't run a bus with just a handful of twirly passes.

It’s refreshing to see an operator being as open and honest on social media, and their comments certainly backs up what I was told about it being a loss maker for some considerable time. Sometimes people don’t understand that simply withdrawing the route would probably be the most cost effective solution for the operator.

To echo Duncombe, it does seem like they're damned either way. If they don't answer in other than anodyne terms, then they're being slippery and evasive. Answer directly, then they're being rude.

I don't like the "spin" from any operator. Stagecoach have just done it by extolling the new links and connectivity of their revised Forest of Dean network whilst singularly failing to acknowledge that the main route has been halved in frequency (and more on certain sections); no operator should be disingenuous. I accept that they shouldn't promote "bad" things as "good" but also, there isn't anything wrong with being positive about your business and shouldn't go all Uriah Heap (very 'umble) either.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It’s refreshing to see an operator being as open and honest on social media, and their comments certainly backs up what I was told about it being a loss maker for some considerable time.

Definitely, I don't consider the tweets rude. But the original Twitterer also makes a valid point about a vicious circle. A fast service isn't busy enough off-peak so it goes more round the houses to drum up business. That in turn drives away the people who do use it for the full length, making it lose more money not less.

I much prefer it to the Stagecoach smarm school version: "to improve our service we're running fewer buses and charging higher fares".

 

[Stan Drews]

Definitely, I don't consider the tweets rude. But the original Twitterer also makes a valid point about a vicious circle. A fast service isn't busy enough off-peak so it goes more round the houses to drum up business. That in turn drives away the people who do use it for the full length, making it lose more money not less.

Although, in this case it appears that it did reduce the gap between the operating costs and the revenue generated. However less of a loss, is still a loss, and can’t continue indefinitely.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Definitely, I don't consider the tweets rude. But the original Twitterer also makes a valid point about a vicious circle. A fast service isn't busy enough off-peak so it goes more round the houses to drum up business. That in turn drives away the people who do use it for the full length, making it lose more money not less.

I much prefer it to the Stagecoach smarm school version: "to improve our service we're running fewer buses and charging higher fares".

It's not really a vicious circle but sadly a conundrum that we've seen a lot of times. You go round more places to hoover up more passengers but lose some because of the uncompetitive journey times.

In this case, you had a loss making service in the first place so the re-route was to improve the situation but obviously not enough.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I don't entirely understand why the 'Red Express' is now the poor relation of the 'Witch Way'. The former, especially with the Ramsbottom deviation, serves many populous locations with a short motorway running section. The latter serves just Burnley to Rawtenstall followed by a much longer motorway section.

Historically, in Ribble days, 'Red Express' was the primary route with a higher frequency than the 'Witch Way'. Since de-regulation (which I grant you is now a long time ago) 'Red Express' has been constantly meddled with, to the point of near extinction in 2000/01, and constant whittling away in recent years. Conversely 'Witch Way' has gone from strength to strength following the competition from GM Buses (where are they now!) and retaliative increases in frequency in 1994/95.

Perhaps 'Red Express' should run every 15 minutes to offer a more attractive service in order to attract more punters!

 

[Stan Drews]

Perhaps 'Red Express' should run every 15 minutes to offer a more attractive service in order to attract more punters!

Well someone did suggest another op should give it a go cos Transdev are not doing it right, so should we look out for Baxenden Buses?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Well someone did suggest another op should give it a go cos Transdev are not doing it right, so should we look out for Baxenden Buses?

Pushing First in The Potteries over a cliff would be my first priority. Baxenden is more historical for me.

I did use the Red Notveryexpress last week. 25 minutes late leaving Chorlton Street (I thought it had arrived early when I turned the corner coming from Piccadilly). Followed things on the app and the following service chased us along the M60/M66 then overtook us at Ramsbottom. Carried on playing leapfrog until I got off. Coming back, first bus after 0930 and it was very lightly loaded, then again so were the 464's just after twirly time. When Rosso was bought, there were 8 buses an hour through Baxenden, next week there will be five, two of which run very close together, so an effective frequency of four per hour.

Oh for the days of buses every 5 minutes on the mainline and service extras parked up in Rising Bridge waiting for a passing driver to call them into service as he was full and standing!

 

[Alexbus12]

Red Notveryexpress

Brilliant! That's one phrase I shall now be using

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't entirely understand why the 'Red Express' is now the poor relation of the 'Witch Way'. The former, especially with the Ramsbottom deviation, serves many populous locations with a short motorway running section. The latter serves just Burnley to Rawtenstall followed by a much longer motorway section.

Historically, in Ribble days, 'Red Express' was the primary route with a higher frequency than the 'Witch Way'. Since de-regulation (which I grant you is now a long time ago) 'Red Express' has been constantly meddled with, to the point of near extinction in 2000/01, and constant whittling away in recent years. Conversely 'Witch Way' has gone from strength to strength following the competition from GM Buses (where are they now!) and retaliative increases in frequency in 1994/95.

Perhaps 'Red Express' should run every 15 minutes to offer a more attractive service in order to attract more punters!

So let me get this right.... You're saying that you have a loss making service and that you're going to double the service (and so double the resources) and more than double the patronage??

 

[Baxenden Bank]

So let me get this right.... You're saying that you have a loss making service and that you're going to double the service (and so double the resources) and more than double the patronage??

Yes!

With some proviso's.

Big is beautiful. In bus terms swap frequent for big.

Think of a traditional corner shop in today's market. It has a limited range so can only serve a limited market - the desperate, the idle and the forgetful - everyone else goes to the big supermarket which, as a consequence, hoovers up the customers and hollows out the high street/residential areas. The same applies to pet supplies, DIY, clothes etc. That is why out-of-town retail has been so successful (in business terms); wider choice and more convenient for most. The big supermarket can serve everybody's needs - from the desperate, idle and forgetful, through the three times a week top-up shopper to the monthly family mega-shop.

In bus terms think of those D & G services (Staffordshire/Stoke-on-Trent) operating three or four times between 0930 and 1430. Who exactly does that serve? They are the corner-shop equivalent serving just the desperate (no alternative) and the idle (won't walk to the main road). Heaven knows how you can depreciate a bus over a 5 hour working day! Yes, they provide a service for those who can't get to the main road (elderly, infirm) but not offering much to the wider potential market. No use for workers, students, hospital appointments, leisure, evening or weekend travellers. Cut your service and you cut out chunks of your potential market. The more you cut, the less opportunity you have to serve. Or from the opposite angle, make your offer wider and you widen the potential market. Frequency is the key. The National Bus Company proved this with their bread-van minibuses. Locally PMT proved it with mini-links, and as far as I can gather Stagecoach have more recently proved it in Ashford.

There is now no direct bus between Accrington and Blackburn, well the punters can always take the Hyndburn Circular instead (approx 26 minutes instead of 21 minutes), they have no choice and time is not important to them! Rail did not really compete on that route.

The direct bus between Accrington and Burnley just about survives, but the punter can always take the meandering mainline, moseying around estates at Hapton, Huncoat and Padiham to mop up as many passengers as possible. They have no choice etc.

Ribble 743/X43 Skipton to Manchester (the Witch Way) traditionally ran hourly through declining industrial heartlands, yet now manages to run every 15 minutes (with express extras at peak hours). It has been stepped up over time to half-hourly, then 20 minutes and now a 15 minute frequency.
Ribble 703/X3 Clitheroe to Manchester (the Red Express) traditionally ran half-hourly through rather similar declining industrial heartlands, yet now cannot wash it's face financially.
That is the bit I fail to understand. Is the X43 as successful as they make out compared with the X3 being the failure they make out?

Do we blame Ribble pre-deregulation, Ribble and Blackburn Transport competing immediately post de-regulation, Stagecoach after that or Transdev now?

Taking into account my home train frequency, and subsequent rail connections to Manchester, it will in future be quicker to catch the X43 to Rawtenstall (e 15 mins) and then the 464 to Baxenden (e 15 mins) rather than taking the X3 direct (e 60 mins). So that'll be another passenger lost to the 'improved' '#amazing' Red Express.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ribble 703/X3 Clitheroe to Manchester (the Red Express) traditionally ran half-hourly through rather similar declining industrial heartlands, yet now cannot wash it's face financially.
That is the bit I fail to understand. Is the X43 as successful as they make out compared with the X3 being the failure they make out?

One has to remember the Clitheroe to Blackburn railway line that was closed to passenger train services in 1962, subsequently re-opened in 1994 and serves stations at Clitheroe, Whalley, Langho and Ramsgreave & Wilpshire en route to Blackburn and has direct rail services to Manchester via Bolton.

 

[SCH117X]

Also £14m was spent by 2015 to improve the Blackburn-Manchester rail service to half hourly which is today. Thats an trainload of passengers who might previously have used the X41 as it was.

 

[Ant158]

There is now no bus service between Clitheroe and Accrington, Transdev/Blazefield have had a number of tries, as have others. (If M&M Coaches still existed I bet the 231 would still exist). Also LCC now refuse to subsidise the route, even though the service was packed with commuters during the evening peak a few years ago.

There was service 700, the X1/X2, 241, 14, 15... these competed with the train for many years. The X1 was deemed a special service at the time, with branded Olympians. The trains to Clitheroe are still hourly most of the day. Then the cutbacks to serve Whalley/Great Harwood, then scrap those links and add Blackburn instead. The route has had too many changes over the years to attract regular customers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes!

With some proviso's.

Big is beautiful. In bus terms swap frequent for big.

Think of a traditional corner shop in today's market. It has a limited range so can only serve a limited market - the desperate, the idle and the forgetful - everyone else goes to the big supermarket which, as a consequence, hoovers up the customers and hollows out the high street/residential areas. The same applies to pet supplies, DIY, clothes etc. That is why out-of-town retail has been so successful (in business terms); wider choice and more convenient for most. The big supermarket can serve everybody's needs - from the desperate, idle and forgetful, through the three times a week top-up shopper to the monthly family mega-shop.

In bus terms think of those D & G services (Staffordshire/Stoke-on-Trent) operating three or four times between 0930 and 1430. Who exactly does that serve? They are the corner-shop equivalent serving just the desperate (no alternative) and the idle (won't walk to the main road). Heaven knows how you can depreciate a bus over a 5 hour working day! Yes, they provide a service for those who can't get to the main road (elderly, infirm) but not offering much to the wider potential market. No use for workers, students, hospital appointments, leisure, evening or weekend travellers. Cut your service and you cut out chunks of your potential market. The more you cut, the less opportunity you have to serve. Or from the opposite angle, make your offer wider and you widen the potential market. Frequency is the key. The National Bus Company proved this with their bread-van minibuses. Locally PMT proved it with mini-links, and as far as I can gather Stagecoach have more recently proved it in Ashford.

There is now no direct bus between Accrington and Blackburn, well the punters can always take the Hyndburn Circular instead (approx 26 minutes instead of 21 minutes), they have no choice and time is not important to them! Rail did not really compete on that route.

The direct bus between Accrington and Burnley just about survives, but the punter can always take the meandering mainline, moseying around estates at Hapton, Huncoat and Padiham to mop up as many passengers as possible. They have no choice etc.

Ribble 743/X43 Skipton to Manchester (the Witch Way) traditionally ran hourly through declining industrial heartlands, yet now manages to run every 15 minutes (with express extras at peak hours). It has been stepped up over time to half-hourly, then 20 minutes and now a 15 minute frequency.
Ribble 703/X3 Clitheroe to Manchester (the Red Express) traditionally ran half-hourly through rather similar declining industrial heartlands, yet now cannot wash it's face financially.
That is the bit I fail to understand. Is the X43 as successful as they make out compared with the X3 being the failure they make out?

Do we blame Ribble pre-deregulation, Ribble and Blackburn Transport competing immediately post de-regulation, Stagecoach after that or Transdev now?

Taking into account my home train frequency, and subsequent rail connections to Manchester, it will in future be quicker to catch the X43 to Rawtenstall (e 15 mins) and then the 464 to Baxenden (e 15 mins) rather than taking the X3 direct (e 60 mins). So that'll be another passenger lost to the 'improved' '#amazing' Red Express.

I'd venture that doubling the frequency to every 15 mins would indeed attract a few more customers but it would massively compound the losses. Just work out the maths on that. If you double your resources, but you're already losing money, then you have to more than double patronage just to break even.

Remember that Stagecoach used to have a raft of express services (in Lancashire and elsewhere) and that was fine in the mid 1990s before the rail network received the amount of spending it now receives. However, improved rail, increasing congestion and poor ENCTS remuneration mean that many "express" services just don't have the passengers/revenue to sustain themselves.

Frequency may be the key? Only in part. The NBC were able to run minibuses at high frequencies using drivers on much lower wage rates and using van derived minibuses. That provided a relatively low cost base but that has now gone as vehicles have had to be more accessible and wage rates achieve parity with "conventional" drivers. The experiment in in Ashford highlighted that, yes frequencies do improve patronage. However, note that the experiment was soon amended with the minibuses cast away across the empire and the routes converted back to Optare Solos - I think at a frequency still higher than before the minis but lower than the minis themselves.

The "build it and they will come" argument is all very well but when you have collapsing high street footfall, where are the passengers coming from?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Remember that Stagecoach used to have a raft of express services (in Lancashire and elsewhere) and that was fine in the mid 1990s before the rail network received the amount of spending it now receives. However, improved rail, increasing congestion and poor ENCTS remuneration mean that many "express" services just don't have the passengers/revenue to sustain themselves.

Was it Stagecoach who operated the X61(?) service from Manchester Shudehill bus station to Blackpool in fairly recent years?

 

[158756]

The Stagecoach X61 competed with a much better train service than the Red Express has to deal with - the train at Accrington is hourly, only ten minutes faster before the bus was diverted to Ramsbottom, and obviously takes longer than it does from Burnley competing with the X43, which doesn't have any difficulties we're aware of (and if Burnley and Pendle truly does make a profit, must be doing very well, given they've downgraded every other route they operate).

The towns of Rossendale of course have no competing rail service. Has Haslingden had a public transport link to Manchester continuously since the railway opened in 1848, which will be lost if/when the X41 is withdrawn?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Stagecoach X61 competed with a much better train service than the Red Express has to deal with - the train at Accrington is hourly, only ten minutes faster before the bus was diverted to Ramsbottom, and obviously takes longer than it does from Burnley competing with the X43, which doesn't have any difficulties we're aware of (and if Burnley and Pendle truly does make a profit, must be doing very well, given they've downgraded every other route they operate).

The towns of Rossendale of course have no competing rail service. Has Haslingden had a public transport link to Manchester continuously since the railway opened in 1848, which will be lost if/when the X41 is withdrawn?

It was probably marginal at the best of times and remember, it was apparently losing money before the changes.

As for Transdev, paring back the routes is par for the course across the country irrespective of the operator.

 

[Stan Drews]

The Stagecoach X61 competed with a much better train service than the Red Express has to deal with - the train at Accrington is hourly, only ten minutes faster before the bus was diverted to Ramsbottom, and obviously takes longer than it does from Burnley competing with the X43, which doesn't have any difficulties we're aware of (and if Burnley and Pendle truly does make a profit, must be doing very well, given they've downgraded every other route they operate).

“downgraded every other route”, ...do you mean the Burnley town services? If so, that’s not exactly unusual in a relatively small northern town, and they did take on a number of eve/Sun journeys commercially in 2016, that were previously subsidised by LCC, and that they still run. The Witch Way and Mainline are clearly where they make their money (hence the significant investment), although they’ve also expanded the College services they provide for Nelson & Colne and Burnley Colleges.

 

[ag51ruk]

In bus terms think of those D & G services (Staffordshire/Stoke-on-Trent) operating three or four times between 0930 and 1430. Who exactly does that serve? They are the corner-shop equivalent serving just the desperate (no alternative) and the idle (won't walk to the main road). Heaven knows how you can depreciate a bus over a 5 hour working day! Yes, they provide a service for those who can't get to the main road (elderly, infirm) but not offering much to the wider potential market.

There are many services around the country that operate at those sort of times, because before and after they run school or college services - so provide something for smaller operators to do with the vehicle and driver in between.

 

[RustySpoons]

“downgraded every other route”, ...do you mean the Burnley town services? If so, that’s not exactly unusual in a relatively small northern town, and they did take on a number of eve/Sun journeys commercially in 2016, that were previously subsidised by LCC, and that they still run. The Witch Way and Mainline are clearly where they make their money (hence the significant investment), although they’ve also expanded the College services they provide for Nelson & Colne and Burnley Colleges.

I'm surprised these are still running, they really can't be making anything as most of them mostly carry fresh air.

Then again if people can't rely on the bus to get home after early evening, what else can they do? They won't get the bus into town if they can't get the same bus back home.

 

[Stan Drews]

I'm surprised these are still running, they really can't be making anything as most of them mostly carry fresh air.

But you can bet someone will still have a dig at them if they do decide to take any of them off.

 

[RustySpoons]

But you can bet someone will still have a dig at them if they do decide to take any of them off.

Plenty will, but they'll just see it as big bad Transdev, despite the blame lying with LCC.

 

[158756]

“downgraded every other route”, ...do you mean the Burnley town services? If so, that’s not exactly unusual in a relatively small northern town, and they did take on a number of eve/Sun journeys commercially in 2016, that were previously subsidised by LCC, and that they still run. The Witch Way and Mainline are clearly where they make their money (hence the significant investment), although they’ve also expanded the College services they provide for Nelson & Colne and Burnley Colleges.

The forthcoming changes to Mainline are not those of an acceptably profitable route. I don't know why they bother with the colleges given they don't have anything to do with the buses during the day, or why the plethora of companies winning the council tenders haven't offered the colleges a better price.

 

[RustySpoons]

The forthcoming changes to Mainline are not those of an acceptably profitable route. I don't know why they bother with the colleges given they don't have anything to do with the buses during the day, or why the plethora of companies winning the council tenders haven't offered the colleges a better price.

I believe college students get (or at least they did a couple of years back) get free travel on Transdev buses locally (it used to be called the 'Silver' ticket - think it's called 'Lancashire' now). The college services will probably just help them get too and from college as well as get around town too.

 

[Stan Drews]

The forthcoming changes to Mainline are not those of an acceptably profitable route.

I hadn’t realised that you couldn’t make an ‘acceptably profitable route’ more reliable?