• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Rough timeline of transatlantic passenger travel?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Comstock

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2012
Messages
535
I'm properly googling the wrong things here, but I can't get a rough timeframe of transatlantic passenger travel from anything i read.

As I understand it, the first passenger services went London-Lisbon-Azores- St John's - New York?

This was later followed by London- Ireland( Cork?)- St John's -New York, then the Ireland stop was missed out and finally direct flight became possible?

What I can't get is dates, even rough ones, when these services happened. I'm talking about regular passenger services, not military or aviation pioneers....
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

etr221

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2018
Messages
1,037
From Wikipedia:
1756 government service of monthly mail brigs from Falmouth, Cornwall, to New York, carrying some passengers - it doesn't say what happened to these after 1776.
1817/18 - regular monthly service (sailing packets) by Black Ball Line from New York to Liverpool (first 'scheduled' service)
1840 first regular Transatlantic steamship liner service Liverpool - Halifax (Nova Scotia) - Boston by Cunard
 

Comstock

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2012
Messages
535
Sorry I should have made it clearer I was talking about air travel. Interesting to know about the ship travel though. In the HBO series John Adams it does mention his going across the Atlantic to rally support for the cause. It might be interesting to know when the *last* scheduled ship crossing was ( arguably they haven't stopped because the Queen Mary plys that route today)
 

Elwyn

Member
Joined
5 May 2014
Messages
437
Location
Co. Antrim, Ireland
I recall meeting relatives on an Air Canada flight at Prestwick in the 1960s. The routing was Toronto-Gander-Prestwick-Heathrow. Some flights also stopped at Belfast and then on to Prestwick.


Plus some flights went US/Canada – Gander-Shannon- Dublin/Heathrow/Amsterdam etc. The Gander, Prestwick & Shannon stops nearly all disappeared in the 1970s when the planes could fly non stop. The only exception being Ireland where under Irish law any transatlantic flight for Dublin was obliged to stop at Shannon too, to ensure the airport remained viable. Some airlines complied, and some stopped flying to Ireland.
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
782
I recall meeting relatives on an Air Canada flight at Prestwick in the 1960s. The routing was Toronto-Gander-Prestwick-Heathrow. Some flights also stopped at Belfast and then on to Prestwick.


Plus some flights went US/Canada – Gander-Shannon- Dublin/Heathrow/Amsterdam etc. The Gander, Prestwick & Shannon stops nearly all disappeared in the 1970s when the planes could fly non stop. The only exception being Ireland where under Irish law any transatlantic flight for Dublin was obliged to stop at Shannon too, to ensure the airport remained viable. Some airlines complied, and some stopped flying to Ireland.
Non stop flights across the Atlantic became commonplace with the introduction of the Douglas DC-7C by Pan American around 1956. BOAC had to buy some to stay competitive. TWA had to wait for the rival Lockheed L-1649A Starliner which appeared a year later. These, of course, were piston engined. The first turbine powered trans-atlantic flights were by BOAC's Bristol Britannia 312s in December 1957. The first jets across the Atlantic were the Comet 4 and the Boeing 707-120 in late 1958, both essentially medium range types so they had to stop to refuel westbound at least. In 1960 the intercontinental 707-320 and 420 arrived, followed by the Douglas DC-8-30 and -40, and there was no need for refuelling stops, but some flights still called at Prestwick and Shannon for traffic reasons.
 

FQTV

Member
Joined
27 Apr 2012
Messages
1,067
Sorry I should have made it clearer I was talking about air travel. Interesting to know about the ship travel though. In the HBO series John Adams it does mention his going across the Atlantic to rally support for the cause. It might be interesting to know when the *last* scheduled ship crossing was ( arguably they haven't stopped because the Queen Mary plys that route today)

The Queen Mary 2 crossings are in fact still classed as scheduled services, and they also carry a (token) Royal Mail bag on each crossing, to maintain her ‘RMS’ prefix.
 

InterCity:125

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2018
Messages
352
Location
Bristol
Flight BA1 still flies the old transatlantic route (London-Shannon-new York). The plane is a a318 so still has to re-fuel in Ireland to make it to New York. It’s a full business class layout and goes from London city. Interestingly all the seats face the same way unlike normal BA business class seats and also doesn’t have a IFE system (a I-pad is given out) as a weight saving feature.
 

Comstock

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2012
Messages
535
Is Prestwick nearer to Canada than Heathrow? It doesn't look it on Google maps but I think that uses a Mercator projection which is pretty much useless on a global scale.
 

Elwyn

Member
Joined
5 May 2014
Messages
437
Location
Co. Antrim, Ireland
Is Prestwick nearer to Canada than Heathrow? It doesn't look it on Google maps but I think that uses a Mercator projection which is pretty much useless on a global scale.

Yes it is closer. Many transatlantic flights today from London and Europe still overfly Prestwick and Gander as it’s the shortest route. If you look at a globe of the world it is easier to see.
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
2,912
Location
Sunny South Lancs
Non stop flights across the Atlantic became commonplace with the introduction of the Douglas DC-7C by Pan American around 1956. BOAC had to buy some to stay competitive. TWA had to wait for the rival Lockheed L-1649A Starliner which appeared a year later. These, of course, were piston engined. The first turbine powered trans-atlantic flights were by BOAC's Bristol Britannia 312s in December 1957. The first jets across the Atlantic were the Comet 4 and the Boeing 707-120 in late 1958, both essentially medium range types so they had to stop to refuel westbound at least. In 1960 the intercontinental 707-320 and 420 arrived, followed by the Douglas DC-8-30 and -40, and there was no need for refuelling stops, but some flights still called at Prestwick and Shannon for traffic reasons.

Worth noting that although the big piston-engined aircraft did indeed allow non-stop schedules to be advertised in practice the westbound flights could still encounter heavier than usual headwinds so they could still end up having to call in at Gander or Goose Bay for fuel.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
Flight BA1 still flies the old transatlantic route (London-Shannon-new York). The plane is a a318 so still has to re-fuel in Ireland to make it to New York. It’s a full business class layout and goes from London city. Interestingly all the seats face the same way unlike normal BA business class seats and also doesn’t have a IFE system (a I-pad is given out) as a weight saving feature.
I flew on this last month. The stop in Shannon is primarily required because of the take off from City meaning it can't depart with a full load of fuel; the return working BA2 goes non-stop from New York to London City. The stop in Shannon also has the benefit for customers that they clear US Customs & Immigration in Shannon, meaning that you land in New York as a domestic traveller and thus can proceed straight to baggage reclaim. The seats are vastly superior to the normal "Club World" seats on other planes.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
I flew on this last month. The stop in Shannon is primarily required because of the take off from City meaning it can't depart with a full load of fuel; the return working BA2 goes non-stop from New York to London City. The stop in Shannon also has the benefit for customers that they clear US Customs & Immigration in Shannon, meaning that you land in New York as a domestic traveller and thus can proceed straight to baggage reclaim. The seats are vastly superior to the normal "Club World" seats on other planes.

Rather jealous, I want to do BA1 (and didn’t think about it during the Concorde era).
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Yes it is closer. Many transatlantic flights today from London and Europe still overfly Prestwick and Gander as it’s the shortest route. If you look at a globe of the world it is easier to see.

Err, what? Which part of Canada?

It’s over 2000 miles from Glasgow to St Johns, Newfoundland.
 

Merthyr Imp

Member
Joined
24 May 2016
Messages
495
Location
Merthyr Tydfil
Don't forget the German transatlantic airship services in the 1930s. The 'Graf Zeppelin' ran a regular service between Germany and Brazil. The 'Hindenburg', of course, was in service for a much shorter period over the North Atlantic.

Then there were the flying boat services of the late 1930s operated by Pan Am between New York and Southampton with stops in Canada, Newfoundland and Ireland.
 

Elwyn

Member
Joined
5 May 2014
Messages
437
Location
Co. Antrim, Ireland
Err, what? Which part of Canada?

It’s over 2000 miles from Glasgow to St Johns, Newfoundland.


Nearly all transatlantic flights to Eastern Canada (Halifax, Montreal, Toronto etc) go up over Scotland or Ireland towards Greenland and then down over Newfoundland. Last time I flew to Dallas in Texas it also went that way. If you look a globe or a mercatorial map you'll see it's the shortest route.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Nearly all transatlantic flights to Eastern Canada (Halifax, Montreal, Toronto etc) go up over Scotland or Ireland towards Greenland and then down over Newfoundland. Last time I flew to Dallas in Texas it also went that way. If you look a globe or a mercatorial map you'll see it's the shortest route.

I know that, but it can’t be closer from Prestwick to Canada than Prestwick to Heathrow!
 

gordonthemoron

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2006
Messages
6,589
Location
Milton Keynes
I flew Gatwick to Cancun in 1995, it was a substitue plane and had to stop for refueling in Bangor, Maine. Seemed a strange route
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
2,912
Location
Sunny South Lancs
Nearly all transatlantic flights to Eastern Canada (Halifax, Montreal, Toronto etc) go up over Scotland or Ireland towards Greenland and then down over Newfoundland. Last time I flew to Dallas in Texas it also went that way. If you look a globe or a mercatorial map you'll see it's the shortest route.

However the existence of jetstreams means that the shortest route is not necessarily the quickest or most economical. As the North Atlantic jetstream varies in both course and speed the actual path taken by a specific flight can also vary from one flight to another. As an example when monitoring aircraft movements on a flight tracking website I occasionally notice flights between Paris and the US east coast passing overhead of me in Lancashire. But on many days those flights come nowhere near the UK at all. Anyone wanting more details on specifics could try entering "great circle routes" and "North Atlantic organised track system" into their preferred search engine.
 

AndyNLondon

Member
Joined
20 Jan 2014
Messages
189
I flew Gatwick to Cancun in 1995, it was a substitue plane and had to stop for refueling in Bangor, Maine. Seemed a strange route
Great Circle routes (i.e. the shortest routes when you account for the Earth's curvature) always go closer to the poles than flat maps would suggest is shortest - these won't be the actual routes flown, because of weather etc., but Gatwick-Bangor-Cancun is actually only 68 miles longer than Gatwick-Cancun direct (per this measurement site, those two are 5032 miles & 4964 miles respectively map.gif )
 

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
3,834
It might be interesting to know when the *last* scheduled ship crossing was ( arguably they haven't stopped because the Queen Mary plys that route today)
Most transatlantic liner crossings ended in the 1960s by which time Boeing 707s and its rivals were making frequent direct flights. Cunard's Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth made their last crossings in the late 1960s.

Since then only QE2 (until 2008) and QM2 have operated regular transatlantic crossings, although cruise ships make repositioning crossings. They usually cross further south to avoid heavy weather - QM2 was specifically designed to cope with north Atlantic winter weather, with a thicker hull, higher promenade deck, and open decks fore and aft.

As well as QM2 in service, and Queen Mary and QE2 surviving as static attractions, CMV's small cruise ship "Marco Polo" was built for Russia - Canada transatlantic service in the mid 1960s. Although she has been much refitted since, I believe she is still powered by her original marine diesel engines.
 

InterCity:125

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2018
Messages
352
Location
Bristol
As well as QM2 in service, and Queen Mary and QE2 surviving as static attractions
I a few others are still around. The SS America ran aground and is being brocken up by the sea (it can now only be seen at low tide) and the ss United States is still afloat in dock 82 in Philadelphia.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top