Route LM&XC ticket London To Sheffield

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by hkstudent, 7 Oct 2019.

  1. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    May I know if the LM&XC ticket still valid to go via Birmingham or I need to stick to interchange at Tamworth?
    I have checked that there are no provision of West Coast route in the routing guide
     
    Last edited: 7 Oct 2019
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  3. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    Route 00370 has mandatory via points Nuneaton and Tamworth which you must pass through.

    (And, obviously, requires you to use LNR(LM) and XC services only.)

    I think you can split the routeing at either or both via points (as long as your journey passes through both). So you could also look at combinations of permitted routes to/from your via points.

    London->Sheffield (which has no routes via WCML as you've found.)
    London->Nuneaton->Sheffield.
    London->Tamworth->Sheffield.
    London->Tamworth->Nuneaton->Sheffield.
    London->Nuneaton->Tamworth->Sheffield.

    So, e.g, London-Tamworth via Nuneaton and Birmingham (on Map TV+WM) then Tamworth-Sheffield (Map BY) should be OK.
     
  4. lyndhurst25

    lyndhurst25 Member

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  5. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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  6. pdeaves

    pdeaves Established Member

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    Would that not fall foul of doubling back?
     
  7. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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  8. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    I don't think it necessarily would, no. ( I'm happy to be corrected if I have this wrong. )

    My understanding is that you evaluate validity separately for each leg ( from origin to via point (to via point..) to destination ).
     
  9. Sniffingmoose

    Sniffingmoose Member

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    I use the LM&XC ticket regularly from Burton on Trent because of the low walkup price. Its a great ticket but I can confirm that you must change at Tamworth for the hourly London Northwestern to London. Unfortunatly there are some poor connections at Tamworth if you come back from London in the evening. Not sure if you can go via Birmingham if the hourly London Northwestern Crewe Train is cancelled. I have heard the ticket is available from Derby but I did not realise it was available from Sheffield.
     
  10. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    That's correct if the ticket is geographically routed (e.g. Via Tamworth) but this ticket isn't geographically routed. It's TOC restricted to XC & WMT trains only.
     
  11. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    Certainly it's restricted to those TOCs but I believe that behind the scenes there are also mandatory via points : Tamworth and Nuneaton (although I don't think there's any way for the general public to know that.) Given that there are no direct permitted routes from London to Sheffield that are doable using just those TOCs only, I think journey planners are quite likely to be using the split routeing.
     
  12. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The split route check would only apply if the ticket was geographically routed.

    My understanding is that these hidden mandatory via points are not treated in the same way; they are just conditions of the fare being considered valid.
     
  13. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    I think it is covered by Easement 30052, which says Journeys via Tamworth and Birmingham New Street may double back through Water Orton. This easement applies in both directions.
     
  14. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    OK - thanks - always something new to learn!

    I'm going to have to go back and check how that distinction is coded in the data.
     
  15. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Journey planners and booking engines have no way of knowing if the via points are hidden or not! They appear the same in the data. I don't think they affect the validity of the fare, but they might allow you to get a journey planner to produce an itinerary over a route that arguably isn't valid, which could sometimes be useful...
     
  16. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    I was fairly sure that was the case. So even though, as @yorkie implies, journeys based on split routeing at (non public) via points might not be in the spirit of the public facing RG, correctly implemented journey planners should still validate them?

    I think that the OP's intended journey via Birmingham would depend on this, or is there another easement?

    Yes, that's a potential advantage. I guess a downside is that non-public exclude points on some routes are more of a problem - members of the public won't be able to get an itinerary but won't have any way of knowing why not.
     
  17. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    Indeed, fare data are too hidden from the general public, which is not a good idea.
    I have checked all the possible connections, and find out that via Tamworth would get me to Sheffield faster.

    Meanwhile, I notice that the journey planner didn't offer 1556 / 1446 departure as super off-peak fares despite they are before 1600. (possibly because of Tamworth journey starts after 1600?)
     
  18. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The contractual position is that the ticket is valid, as per:
    However booking sites are not allowed to sell the ticket, due to the following hidden electronic restrictions:
    This results in the following, which are breaches of competition and consumer laws:
    • Customers who book online are overcharged (if they do not realise)
    • Online retailers miss out on sales (if the customers do realise)
    I've said it before, so apologies for saying it again, but the rail industry is skating on thin ice, due to multiple breaches of relevant laws. This is just one example out of too many to count.
     
  19. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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    In what way do these differ?

     
  20. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.
     
  21. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    Who can be contacted for rectifying the glitch in the ticketing system?
    Of course, since it is not an advance ticket, what I need to do is to call Crosscountry for changing seat reservation anyway.
     
  22. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    There isn't much that can be done about it - the data formats don't support that type of rule. This has been a known problem for at least the last 10 years, and has been brought up on here regularly during that time.

    If they get pushed into doing anything then I suspect that the most likely result will be that the restriction will be amended to no longer allow connections.
     
  23. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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    Can it not be changed to

    Not valid to depart origin 1600–1718 on any TOC
    Not valid to depart origin 1720–1859 on any TOC
     
  24. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    It can be encoded with a list of stations or it can be encoded to apply from any station.

    There is no concept of "origin" as such.
     
  25. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    And to confirm, would I be possible to break the journey at Birmingham New Street? Would it be very likely that I may need to have a argue with staff?

    It would be best if taking reference to Southwestern's setting, for departure time from Waterloo / Vauxhall / Clapham Junction
     
  26. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    It is not permitted on the outward portion. It is on the return.

    It is not very likely you would need to argue; there are no staff at the station exits and you are permitted to access any facilities within station premises (which are very expensive at BHM!), however we cannot condone the braking of this rule, even though it's ridiculous and unenforceable.
     
  27. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    Yeah, what I am thinking of is, to break the journey (for dinner out of station) at Birmingham on return journey to London.
     
  28. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    That's fine :)
     
  29. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    The way to fix it is to have different codes for different stations specifying the relevant origin. They're too lazy, though.
     
  30. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    Would the XC service from Birmingham New Street to Coventry (and change for LM from there) be also valid?
     
  31. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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    I checked this ticket on the excellent trainsplit site but even they struggle to show it for the correct times!
     

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