Route validity

[mervyn72]

Hi. I presume this has been asked before but is there a website which shows the valid routes you can taken between two stations. Eg if I had a return from Stevenage to London could I go via Welwyn and/or Hertford?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

In your example, the wording ‘Any Permitted’ on the ticket would cover use of either route.
I doubt there are more restrictively-worded tickets available for that journey anyway...

 

[yorkie]

Hi. I presume this has been asked before but is there a website which shows the valid routes you can taken between two stations. Eg if I had a return from Stevenage to London could I go via Welwyn and/or Hertford?

You can use either route.

If an online booking website will offer an itinerary in conjunction with one ticket, that indicates it is valid on one ticket (in 99.9 per cent of cases); any ticket purchased in conjunction with an itinerary is valid as per that itinerary, under contract and consumer law.

Does that answer your question or do you want a more technical answer?

 

[mervyn72]

It does for this journey thank you. Is there a resource or website that shows permitted routes of the "any permitted". A ticket from Glasgow to Edinburgh wont allow via Carlisle (I presume) for example...

 

[jfollows]

As someone who has been a member since 2015 and made 161 posts, surely you're aware of http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide aren't you? If not, it is the resource you're looking for.
It tells me what routes are valid from Wilmslow to Stafford (Crewe and Stockport, the latter by virtue of a doubling-back easement) and then valid routes between Stafford and Birmingham. The latter allows me additional routes than on a Wilmslow-Birmingham ticket. All the information is there! It will answer your Glasgow to Edinburgh question for sure.
If you're looking for something "simpler" then you're going to be disappointed.

 

[kieron]

In terms of "something simpler", the journey planner at nre.co.uk has a "show alternative route" view which sometimes gives a number of valid routes for a ticket. It can be quite hit and miss as to which routes it tries, though.

 

[yorkie]

It does for this journey thank you. Is there a resource or website that shows permitted routes of the "any permitted". A ticket from Glasgow to Edinburgh wont allow via Carlisle (I presume) for example...

Ok in that case yes; take a look in our Fares Guide and you will see details of the Routeing Guide.

Note that the Routeing Guide is intended for journey planners to interpret electronic data to determine if a route is permitted or not.

The recommended course of action for customers is to plan a journey and be offered appropriate tickets.

However it is possible to learn how to use the Routeing Guide to see what is permitted, but it's not for the average person to get into. If you are interested check out our Fares Guide and there is also the option to join us at a fares workshop if you are interested, and we will show you how to use it (for free, of course).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I expect that there's about to be a detailed answer from someone about how this formally works#, and explaining that tickets are only authorised for use on permitted routes, rather than 'any reasonable route' which was (until more or less the time of privatisation) the case.

But it seems to me that in practice and for the vast majority of the time - well in excess of 99% of the time - if a route seems sensible, then you can use an open* ticket on it. Either it will be a permitted route, or any railway staff you meet won't know that it's not a permitted route, or they won't care.

So if you want to travel like an ordinary member of the public, use a bit of common sense (so Edinburgh to Glasgow via Carlisle? No, because that would be silly). If you are interested in doing it exactly right - and maybe take advantage of oddities in the railway rules of what is a permitted route, then read on.

#Oh - there already is, while I've been writing this post.

* Open as in not an advance, fixed train ticket, which you can only use on the itinerary booked.

 

[Hadders]

Hi. I presume this has been asked before but is there a website which shows the valid routes you can taken between two stations. Eg if I had a return from Stevenage to London could I go via Welwyn and/or Hertford?

If purchasing such a ticket from the TVM at Stevenage then you must select the option ‘.’ rather than ‘LNER only’ or ‘Any Permitted’ because the rail industry aided and abetted by the DfT believes this is simple to understand and what passengers want.

Note that although there is an ‘Any Permitted’ routeing option on the TVM at Stevenage it doesn’t return any fares when pressed.

 

[Wallsendmag]

View attachment 70740 View attachment 70741

If purchasing such a ticket from the TVM at Stevenage then you must select the option ‘.’ rather than ‘LNER only’ or ‘Any Permitted’ because the rail industry aided and abetted by the DfT believes this is simple to understand and what passengers want.

Note that although there is an ‘Any Permitted’ routeing option on the TVM at Stevenage it doesn’t return any fares when pressed.

nothing to do with the TOCs

 

[yorkie]

nothing to do with the TOCs

But @Hadders did say:

View attachment 70740 View attachment 70741

If purchasing such a ticket from the TVM at Stevenage then you must select the option ‘.’ rather than ‘LNER only’ or ‘Any Permitted’ because the rail industry aided and abetted by the DfT believes this is simple to understand and what passengers want....

Yes it was the DfT's idea, and yes the TOCs implemented it.

But if there is a suggestion that TOCs tried to warn DfT against this course of action, and DfT forced them to do it against their will, then maybe an FOI request would be in order

 

[JB_B]

nothing to do with the TOCs

Can you explain the chain of events that resulted in the fiasco described up-thread in post #9?

 

[Hadders]

I’m sure LNER won’t be dissatisfied with the situation at Stevenage.

They introduced LNER Only fares a couple of years ago which are pretty pointless given the small saving and the nature of the turn up and go GTR service operated between Stevenage and London. Most people just want to get on the next train to London and even if the next one is an LNER service I’d bet the overwhelming majority won’t know what train they’ll be returning on (and will simply just get on the first train whether GTR or LNER). The fact that ticket checks between London and Stevenage are rare means that on practically all journeys the passenger can travel with an invalid ticket. In fact it would be very interesting to know how many LNER only tickets are sold from these TVMs for travel on Sundays when the LNER service is sparse to say the least.

LNER must be rubbing their hands with glee. They’ll be getting the full revenue from these tickets which I strongly suspect are being inadvertently incorrectly purchased by passengers due to the poor and misleading set up of the TVMs.

I wonder if GTR’s revenue growth from Stevenage is lower than expected because of this.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I wonder if GTR’s revenue growth from Stevenage is lower than expected because of this.

But if I have understood Wikipedia correctly (and if Wikipedia is right) GTR run Stevenage station. So if GTR are losing out from badly programmed ticket machines at Stevenage, isn't the solution in GTR's own hands?

 

[Hadders]

But if I have understood Wikipedia correctly (and if Wikipedia is right) GTR run Stevenage station. So if GTR are losing out from badly programmed ticket machines at Stevenage, isn't the solution in GTR's own hands?

It is indeed although GTR are probably too incompetent to realise.

There is an LNER TVM which I will try and check out when I have more time to spare although a very brief look last week seemed to suggest it was no better.