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Routeing Guide question

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johnnycache

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The following is cut and pasted from the routeing guide (but spaced out a bit):

HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES
Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is
not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in
the Routeing Guide.

This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the
same overall journey.

If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to
choose any of the routes listed in the Guide.

Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description.

The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description.

Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

What does the last sentence mean? Does it mean that even if i have a fare
that specifies travel via a particular place i can use other routes that do not pass through that place if they are priced the same or cheaper?

So if I there is a fare from A to B via X at £10 and another fare from A to B via Y at £8 can i go via Y with a via X ticket because the fare via Y is lower?

Merry Christmas
 
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island

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Basically what it is trying to say is this:

If you have a ticket from A to B with route via C, but C does not appear on any valid route from A to B, you look up routes A to C and then C to B.

If the valid routes from A to B are via C, via D, and via E, a ticket with route via C is also valid via D or via E if it is the same price as, or more expensive than, a ticket which would permit you to go via D or via E.
 

John @ home

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National Routeing Guide said:
Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
What does the last sentence mean? Does it mean that even if I have a fare that specifies travel via a particular place I can use other routes that do not pass through that place if they are priced the same or cheaper?
In my opinion, yes. For example, at 2012 prices, a Railcard Off-Peak Return MARSDEN YORKS - LONDON TERMINALS route VIA MANCHESTER costs £62.85. A Railcard Super Off-Peak Return MARSDEN YORKS - LONDON TERMINALS route ANY PERMITTED also costs £62.85. The sentence quoted above gives the holder of the first ticket the right to travel by any permitted route which does not pass through Manchester. See Unfair ticket challenge - advice request.

My view is that it is in the interests of the railway companies to observe this instruction. The alternative is to require the passenger in this situation to obtain a £0.00 excess fare ticket in order to exercise their rights under NRCoC 13(e), involving administration costs for the companies but no additional revenue.
 

RJ

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Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

What does the last sentence mean? Does it mean that even if i have a fare
that specifies travel via a particular place i can use other routes that do not pass through that place if they are priced the same or cheaper?

So if I there is a fare from A to B via X at £10 and another fare from A to B via Y at £8 can i go via Y with a via X ticket because the fare via Y is lower?

Merry Christmas

I believe so. For example, there is a Finsbury Park to Derby fare via Peterborough. This is not a route listed in the National Routeing Guide (it is not mapped or the shortest route.)

It is cheaper than the Any Permitted fare, so the Any Permitted ticket can be used via Peterborough.

If it was more expensive that the Any Permitted fare, it would by valid to use by any permitted route, even those that do not pass through Peterborough.

This is what I understand the reference to mean. I believe it only applies to routes not listed in the NRG. If there were mapped routes via Peterborough and you used the Via Peterborough ticket, you would have to pass through there regardless of the price of the ticket.
 

34D

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This is what I understand the reference to mean. I believe it only applies to routes not listed in the NRG. If there were mapped routes via Peterborough and you used the Via Peterborough ticket, you would have to pass through there regardless of the price of the ticket.

Not sure I agree, in fact it seems that you are imposing an instruction that isn't there. Taking John at home's Marsden-London example, there are mapped routes via both ECML, MML and WCML, and due to the prices, his rationale about using a route Manchester ticket via Wakefield/Peterborough seems to hold water.
 

maniacmartin

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I do not read johnnycache's quotation to imply that it only applies to routes not listed in the NRG. My interpretation is that:

A to B via X is valid on a different route via Y if the via Y ticket is no more expensive than the via X ticket. It appears to be a short-circuit to prevent the burden of trying to find a clerk willing to issue a £0.00 change of route excess
 

34D

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Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

What does the last sentence mean? Does it mean that even if i have a fare
that specifies travel via a particular place i can use other routes that do not pass through that place if they are priced the same or cheaper?

So if I there is a fare from A to B via X at £10 and another fare from A to B via Y at £8 can i go via Y with a via X ticket because the fare via Y is lower?

Merry Christmas

The "permitted routes" are defined in NRCOC 13(c): Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”.

If there is a Leeds-London SSR at £96 any permitted (shortest route being via Wakefield and ECML, mapped routes being limited to MML, ECML (including going via Lincoln and Ely) and going across to York then down to Doncaster), and fictionally a route Manchester ticket at £120 (manchester not being a permitted route for the any permitted) and a fictional route scarborough ticket at £80 (again not on the any permitted)....

The route manchester ticket could be used on any of the 'permitted' routes but not via Scarborough. Is that what RJ was trying to say?
 
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maniacmartin

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Thanks 34D for writing in more detail than I can manage whilst on the train. I would agree with this, but I think this is something different from RJ's interpretation
 

yorkie

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Tickets routed via stations that are not on a permitted route

Occasionally, tickets will be routed via a particular station that is not on a permitted route for the through journey.

In this case, permitted routes are defined as from the origin to the via point, and from via point to the destination. This was confirmed by ATOC when a customer enquired about a Sheffield to Blackburn ticket routed via Burnley.

ATOC said:
The Routeing Guide lists the permitted routes for a particular flow. The actual routes that the customer can use, is sometimes limited by the route shown on the ticket, which may stipulate that the journey must go via a particular location. In some cases however, the opposite applies and the particular “via” location is outside the range of the usual permitted routes and travel via that location would not normally have been permitted. But because a flow specifically routed via that location has been priced by the Train Company , travel is permitted via that location. It appears that this is the case for Sheffield – Blackburn, via Burnley.

In this instance you are correct and you should look up the permitted routes for Sheffield-Burnley and Burnley-Blackburn.

Tickets routed via stations that are on a permitted route

A ticket that is restricted to a particular route may also be valid by other routes, if the same or a lower fare applies:
ATOC said:
Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.
It is unclear whether or not the passenger must be given a 'zero fare excess' or not, but in some cases this clearly should be done, for example a passenger holding a Winchester - Lancaster route: via Banbury should be given a 'zero fare excess' to route: +via London as otherwise the passenger will encounter difficulty using London Underground services.

On the other hand, if a higher fare applies, then an excess fare should be charged:
Where a journey is undertaken by an alternative route to that for which the ticket was originally purchased, and for which a higher fare applies, additional payment is required to enable the customer to make or complete their revised travel arrangements.
This excess is in the form of a change of route excess. For completeness, here are the details for this particular type of excess:-

Excess procedures: change of route

A change of route excess is available for passengers wishing to travel on a more expensive route than the route their ticket permits. Passengers who change their plans and passengers who wish to travel one way on a more expensive route and in the other direction on a cheaper route may wish to purchase a change of route excess.

NRCoC Condition 13e said:
If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.


Charges

If bought from ticket office or on board with no opportunity to pay before boarding:

  • For Singles & Returns, the whole difference is charged
  • For one portion (Outward or Return) of a Return ticket, HALF the difference is charged
  • The difference is between the price paid and the APPROPRIATE ticket type of the route requested.
  • Railcard discounts ARE available
If bought on board where there was opportunity to pay before boarding:

  • As above: there is no penalty on board with this type of excess.
(Note: the above post contains extracts from the forthcoming RailUK's Guide to Fares. Any comments, or if you'd like to get involved, please PM me)
 

johnnycache

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Thanks

I'm thinking about season tickets

Let me try an example

Gomshall to Clapham Junction seven day season

Route Any Permitted £56.70
Route Guildford £68.30

If I buy a Route Guildford ticket am I free to travel Gomshall Guildford Clapham Junction or Gomshall Redhill Clapham Junction at will ?
 

RJ

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If I was a passenger using that ticket, I would expect I could go via Redhill. If the NRG, in the context of a ticket with a route restriction says "Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies," I would take that at face value.
 

AndyLandy

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Thanks

I'm thinking about season tickets

Let me try an example

Gomshall to Clapham Junction seven day season

Route Any Permitted £56.70
Route Guildford £68.30

If I buy a Route Guildford ticket am I free to travel Gomshall Guildford Clapham Junction or Gomshall Redhill Clapham Junction at will ?

Does that mean that a ticket routed "Any Permitted" is not valid via Guildford then? Presumably this would happen if Guildford is not a mapped route, but an operator wants to offer a fare that way anyway?
 

yorkie

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Does that mean that a ticket routed "Any Permitted" is not valid via Guildford then? Presumably this would happen if Guildford is not a mapped route, but an operator wants to offer a fare that way anyway?
Any Permitted is valid on any permitted route, so if Guildford is on a permitted route, then yes it is.

If Guildford is not on a permitted route, then an excess fare applies, however I am unsure what the procedure for a Season is (is it the difference between the SDS fares?).

For example Huddersfield to London route: Any Permitted is always valid via Manchester as it is a permitted route, irrespective of whether via Manchester fare is more expensive (for Anytime fares it is, which makes the Anytime via Manchester pointless as you would always buy Any Permitted).

Greenfield to London has route: via Doncaster and route: via Manchester. In the case of off-peak travel, via Doncaster costs more so is also valid via Manchester. In the case of Anytime travel, via Manchester costs more so is also valid via Doncaster. This makes it harder for guards to know if a ticket is valid, so it would have been better for the more expensive fares to always be routed "Any Permitted" and for the cheaper fares to be routed. However our railway system is deliberately complex (while pretending to be simple) so that is unlikely to happen.
 

34D

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Does that mean that a ticket routed "Any Permitted" is not valid via Guildford then? Presumably this would happen if Guildford is not a mapped route, but an operator wants to offer a fare that way anyway?

Yes if it is NOT a permitted route. Perhaps someone could do us the calculation, to save dealing with hypotheticals, then we'll know which is which

(I'm on a mobile phone and rarely have access to a proper computer due to divorce-related reasons)
 

tannedfrog

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A. There is no direct train
B. via Guildford does not appear from the map to be the shortest route (but I don't know how to calculate the distance Dorking Deepdene to Dorking)

Step 1. Dorking
Step 2. Clapham Junction
Step 3. n/a
Step 4. n/a
Step 5. Gomshall to Dorking
Step 6. CS+LB DK SC SC+WX
Step 7. None of those maps allow travel via Guildford

No easement applies (although 51 states "Journeys from Gomshall to London may go via Guildford. This easement applies in both directions" but I understand Clapham Junction to be not in London)
 
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34D

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Thank you for doing this tannedfrog

If we ignore that easement, then I agree that the any permitted Gomshall-Clapham Junction appears not to be valid via Guildford.

If we look at the easement, then it appears undefined as to which 'London' we are referring to. Is it the city of London, is it London terminals, is it London Group, is it London zones 1-6, is it Greater London, etc.

To the common man in Gomshall, would he say "I'm going to London" if his destination was Clapham Junction? I think he would.

Have we just created another grey area?
 

RJ

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I doubt it. It's a reasonable assumption that in a routing context, "London" refers to the London routeing group.
 

maniacmartin

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London is as RJ says, or possibly London terminals. Other non-rail definitions aren't really relevant IMO.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I do believe the last time the 'London' discussion came up the thread was locked because it was 'going round in circles', but general concensus seemed to be either London Group or London Terminals.
 

RJ

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I do believe the last time the 'London' discussion came up the thread was locked because it was 'going round in circles', but general concensus seemed to be either London Group or London Terminals.

London Terminals does not make logical sense, because you can buy "Not Via London" tickets to certain London Terminals which are not in the London routeing group. That is a categorical fact and I remain unconvinced as to any arguments put against it.

There is a clear distinction to be made between group stations and station groups.

 

hairyhandedfool

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I agree and infact I personally prefer 'London Group' anyway as it is a routeing group rather than a ticketing group, but few actually committed one way or the other in the last discussion (and ISTR some suggesting anything inside the M25 might be 'London' when it suited them though I never got to the bottom of that little mystery)
 

yorkie

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Have we just created another grey area?
Not as grey as you seem to think ;)

I am in agreement with RJ and HHF that it either means London Terminals or London (Routeing) Group, and will also suggest the latter is generally what is intended. There is no other option, it certainly does not refer to any geographical meaning of London that you speculate.

There are inconsistencies though, such as a "Route via Birmingham" ticket intended to be used via Aston (a member of Birmingham Group but not Birmingham Stations) while RJ found "Route not London" tickets intended to be used via Vauxhall (a member of London Terminals but not London Group).

I don't think we got a consistent answer from ATOC on this point either!
 

34D

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"
Not as grey as you seem to think ;)

Yes agreed. Most easement just mention London; some mention specific stations but 30025 mentions London Terminals "Journeys from Amersham to Finsbury Park and stations beyond may travel via London Terminals. This easement applies in both directions." As does 30246 "Customers travelling from Aylesford, New Hythe and Snodland to London Terminals may not travel via Ashford International. This easement applies in both directions" and 30264 "Customers travelling from Canterbury East to London Terminals may not travel via Ashford International. This easement applies in both directions." And 300418 "Customers travelling via Willesden Junction to London Terminals may not travel via Clapham Junction. This easement applies in both directions." And 700018 "Customers travelling from Normans Bay, Cooden Beach, Collington and Bexhill to London Terminals in possession of a ticket routed 'Any Permitted' may not travel via Ebbsfleet International. This easement applies in both directions." And 700084 "Customers travelling from Windsor & Eton Central to or via London Terminals may not travel via Windsor & Eton Riverside. This easement applies in both directions."

Also, does the capitalisation in 700060 make any difference: "Customers in possession of tickets routed LONDON may not travel via Ebbsfleet International." Also 700115 "Customers travelling from Axminster, Honiton, Feniton, Whimple, Pinhoe, St James Park and Exeter Central using tickets routed LONDON, may not travel via Exeter St Davids and Reading. This easement applies in both directions."

For the easements that list London Terminals (or a specific station) the meaning is obvious, which would seem to lend weight that "London" refers to London Group.
 

maniacmartin

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For the easements that list London Terminals (or a specific station) the meaning is obvious, which would seem to lend weight that "London" refers to London Group.

Given the quality of the wording of many easements, I would be wary of drawing anything from something as subtle as that.
 

34D

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Given the quality of the wording of many easements, I would be wary of drawing anything from something as subtle as that.

Yes quite.

You mean that you don't think things like this are clear: ;)

300393: Customers travelling via Norwich using fares routed Irish Ferries may travel via Norwich.
 

island

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That's one of the several easements which are considered to be necessary as a hack for the journey planners misbehaving.
 

kieron

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I don't think Clapham Junction is London, although Battersea Park comes pretty close.

I am wondering whether or not a season ticket between Gomshall and Guildford would be valid via Clapham Junction using map CS, though. Is there still a valid link between Ealing Broadway and the WLL?
 

RJ

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I don't think Clapham Junction is London, although Battersea Park comes pretty close.

I am wondering whether or not a season ticket between Gomshall and Guildford would be valid via Clapham Junction using map CS, though. Is there still a valid link between Ealing Broadway and the WLL?

Yes, there is a weekly CrossCountry service.
 

34D

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Yes, there is a weekly CrossCountry service.

That runs on rubber tyres, provided by another Arriva/Deutsche Bahn company :)

I believe a submission was made (by some of the fares advisors on this forum) to the closure proposal for these stretches of line about ticket routeing (and other points)s.
 

johnnycache

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Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread
I'm now going to try to summarise what i have learned from it

The original question asked whether a passenger with a routed ticket could use that ticket on another route where the fare was lower even though it didn't necessarily pass through the routeing point of the fare

I'm rather ashamed to say it had never occurred to me that this might be true!

Island answered straightaway that yes you can:

"If the valid routes from A to B are via C, via D, and via E, a ticket with route via C is also valid via D or via E if it is the same price as, or more expensive than, a ticket which would permit you to go via D or via E"

John@home agreed giving the example of the route Marsden-London via Manchester (higher fare than Any Permitted) being valid on Any Permitted route

RJ gave the opinion that this only applies to routes which have fares but are not listed in the National Routeing Guide

The example he gave was Finsbury Park to Derby

Using brfares.com (02 Jan 2013) we see Anytime Single via Peterborough £99.50 and Anytime Single route Any Permitted (cross-London) £114.50

RJ says that the Any Permitted fare is valid via Peterborough because its a higher fare and its not in the National Routeing Guide

Derby belongs to Derby Routeing Group
Finsbury Park is a Routeing Point

the maps that can be used are:

LONDON

London Derby NM, TV (NM St Pancras Derby via Leicester/Corby, TV Euston Derby via Tamworth but not Birmingham)
London Finsbury Park EE (Finsbury Park to Kings Cross and Moorgate)

This all confirms what RJ has been saying. The bit I don't get is why it matters whether the route is in the National Routeing Guide or not. If there was a route via Peterborough (say maps ER + NM) that wouldn't change anything would it? If you are saying that had Peterborough been a mapped route then you would have to go that way even if the price was higher than other routes then basically you are saying No to my question.

34D seems to have the same reservations as me

maniacmartin seems to support this view too

34D's example of Leeds to London seems a good one (although route Scarborough is a bit bizarre!)

Yorkie's input dealt with the following scenarios:

i) what are the permitted routes for a ticket which is sold for a route which is not permitted

here the permitted routes to and from the routeing point can be used

in RJ's example of Finsbury Park to Derby we would have

Finsbury Park to Peterborough (maps LONDON, ER)
Peterborough to Derby (maps CN, NL)

ER allows Finsbury Park to Peterborough/Oakham (including via Cambridge/Ely), Grantham/Nottingham
CN allows Oakham to Loghborough and Derby
NL additionally allows Grantham-Nottingham-Derby

Therefore we all seem to be agreed that all of these are in effect permitted routes because the Any Permitted fare is
more expensive than the route Peterborough fare

If they were already permitted routes then the Any Permitted fare (by definition) would be valid over them anyway

Therefore wherever a more expensive fare exists over a non-permitted route that route is in fact permitted

ii) tickets routed via stations that are on permitted routes

This basically re-iterates that a ticket for a more expensive (permitted) route is also valid on less expensive (permitted) routes

It might be a good idea to get a zero excess to avoid conflict with staff but to me this is not strictly necessary if the ticket is valid

I then narrowed the discussion to season tickets because the issue that occasioned the whole thing was a member of my team who lives in Guildford and wants to be able to travel to East Croydon via Redhill or via Clapham Junction.
There is no Any Permitted fare except a via London fare which is not available as a season ticket anyway.

At the new prices the seven day seasons (7DS) cost:

route Redhill £72.40
route not via Clapham Junction £62.30
route not via London - no season ticket priced
route any permitted (cross-London) - no season ticket priced
to zones 2-6 route Woking/Clandon £88.30

Its hard to imagine a less helpful set of prices!

The maps for Guildford to Croydon Group are:

LONDON
PD+SC
PD+SC+WX+LB

PD Guildford to Clapham Junction, Epsom
SC Epsom-Sutton-Croydon, Clapham Junction-Streatham-Croydon
WX and LB don't add anything new

So can i say that a season from Guildford to East Croydon via Redhill (not a permitted route) is valid via Clapham Junction?

I gave the example of Gomshall because that at least had a season ticket fare for route Any Permitted

tannedfrog pointed out that Guildford is not a permitted route for Gomshall to Clapham Junction

RJ and maniacmartin said that easement for journeys from Gomshall to London via Guildford could not be assumed to apply to Clapham Junction

keiron mischeviously suggested that a ticket from Gomshall to Guildford might be valid via Clapham Junction but i don't think this is true as for stations with a common routeing point only the most direct route is permitted.

My conclusions are that the Guildford to Croydon via Redhill fare is not valid via Clapham Junction because there is no other fare via Clapham Junction that it is higher than

However the fare from Gomshall to Clapham Junction route Guildford (now £71.20 per week) should be valid via Redhill as it is higher than the Any Permitted fare from Gomshall to Clapham Junction (now £59.10 per week)

Here are the routes:

Gomshall is a member of Dorking Routeing Group
Clapham Junction is a Routeing Point

Dorking-Clapham Junction
CS+LB
DK
SC
SC+WX

CS Dorking-Redhill-Croydon
LB Croydon-Streatham-Clapham Junction
DK Dorking-Epsom-Wimbledon-Clapham Junction
SC Dorking-Epsom-Sutton-Clapham Junction/Wimbledon
WX Wimbledon-Clapham Junction

Gomshall-Clapham Junction via Guildford

Dorking Guildford CS
Guildford Clapham Junction
DK
PD
PD+SC

DK Guildford-Epsom-Wimbledon-Clapham Junction
PD Guildford-Woking/Oxshott-Surbiton-Clapham Junction
SC Not relevant

So Gomshall to Clapham Junction via Guildford is valid as a season ticket to Croydon via Redhill or Clapham Junction

The only problem is the passenger wants to travel from Guildford to Croydon and trains via Redhill generally don't stop at Gomshall

Yorkie in the past has said this is not a problem but to be on the safe side i'm recommending the following

Woking to Redhill
seven day season fares

route Clapham Junction £83.90
route Gomshall £61.90
route Not Via London £69.30

I take the Not Via London fare to be valid via Gomshall as it is a higher fare
I don't see why it should not also be valid via Clapham Junction even though there is a higher route Clapham Junction fare because its a permitted route. The route Clapham Junction fare is equivalent to the Huddersfield London route Manchester fare ie charging extra for something you could do anyway.

Woking: Routeing Point
Redhill: member of Redhill Routeing Group

maps:
LONDON
CS+PD
LB+WX
SC+WX

CS Clapham Junction-Croydon-Redhill, Redhill-Guildford
PD Woking-Clapham Junction, Guildford-Woking

LB Clapham Junction-Croydon-Redhill
WX Woking-Clapham Junction

SC Clapham Junction-Croydon-Redhill
WX Woking-Clapham Junction

I believe that a seven day season from Redhill to Woking route Not Via London is valid for travel between Guildford and East Croydon via either Clapham Junction or Redhill and i plan to recommend it to my team member.

This all seems a bit strange as we both work for Southern and shouldn't have to do this to find the best fare but...c'est la vie

Anyone think i've got this wrong in any way?

Happy New Year to all
 
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