Routeing Guide Usage Query

[Bill Badger]

Am trying to use the routing guide and have got a bit stuck.

How do you identify permitted routes if the fare for all routeing points to your destination is greater than the fare from your origin station?

Cheers

 

[Deerfold]

I believe that means you can only use direct trains or the shortest route.

The whole routeing guide is a bit up in the air at the moment though...

 

[John @ home]

My first thought is that it has probably not always been the case that "the fare for all routeing points to your destination is greater than the fare from your origin". To protect passengers from the position where a Permitted Route could suddenly cease to be Permitted due to different price increases by different train companies, the electronic fares comparisons are made using National Fares Manual NFM 64 (which is almost 20 years old) rather than current fares data.

So my first suggestion is that you tell us which stations interest you, and one of us will pop along to the National Railway Museum when we have a spare few hours to perform the fares check.

But if it really is the position that there are no appropriate Routeing Points for the journey using both current and historic data, then it is likely that there are no mapped routes and that the Permitted Routes for the journey are the route(s) taken by any through train(s) when travelling by such a train, the shortest route and any route not more than three miles longer than the shortest route.

 

[Bill Badger]

Thanks for the feedback, the journey concerned is Blackwater to Winchester and the issues appears to have only arisen because of the removal of Farnborough as a routing point, meaning Wokingham and Guildford are now routeing points for Blackwater. However, the journey via Farnborugh remains the shortest route, so I guess is the only valid route.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Am trying to use the routing guide and have got a bit stuck.

How do you identify permitted routes if the fare for all routeing points to your destination is greater than the fare from your origin station?

Cheers

The first question I would ask is "do you need to do a fares check?", as it is only if you are not sure which routeing point to use that you should perform this task.

As an example, let us take Swinton (Manchester) as a starting station. Swinton has associated routeing points of Wigan, Bolton, and Salford Crescent, though Bolton can be ignored as you cannot get to it without going to one of the other two first. If the journey was to Leeds, the obvious appropriate routeing point is Salford Crescent, so no fares check is required. If the journey is to Liverpool, most would consider Wigan to be the obvious appropriate routeing point, but some might think Salford Crescent is reasonable too, and so the fares check should be used to determine if either Salford Crescent or Wigan are appropriate routeing points.

If none of the routeing points pass a fares check it is impossible to draw a mapped route.

 

[FenMan]

Thanks for the feedback, the journey concerned is Blackwater to Winchester and the issues appears to have only arisen because of the removal of Farnborough as a routing point, meaning Wokingham and Guildford are now routeing points for Blackwater. However, the journey via Farnborugh remains the shortest route, so I guess is the only valid route.

Another Blackwater user here. I don't think you need to use the Routeing Guide for this journey.

The shortest route by rail, which is always valid, is BAW - Reading - Basingstoke - Winchester.

The route you mention: BAW - Farnborough North - walk - Farnborough Main - Winchester is also valid as it is shorter than the shortest route entirely by rail and is an acknowledged interchange i.e. it is recognised by NRE.

NB: This doesn't apply for a BAW - Basingstoke journey, as a restricted ticket at a reduced fare is available if travelling via Farnborough North. The Any Permitted ticket for this journey is valid both ways.

 

[Bill Badger]

The first question I would ask is "do you need to do a fares check?", as it is only if you are not sure which routeing point to use that you should perform this task.

This is somewhat unusual since the routing points for Blackwater are Guildford and Wokingham and I don't wish to travel through either of them.

If none of the routeing points pass a fares check it is impossible to draw a mapped route.

That's what I thought but then how do you actually travel legally. However, for my situation I think FenMan has the answer below

Another Blackwater user here. I don't think you need to use the Routeing Guide for this journey.

The shortest route by rail, which is always valid, is BAW - Reading - Basingstoke - Winchester.

The route you mention: BAW - Farnborough North - walk - Farnborough Main - Winchester is also valid as it is shorter than the shortest route entirely by rail and is an acknowledged interchange i.e. it is recognised by NRE.

NB: This doesn't apply for a BAW - Basingstoke journey, as a restricted ticket at a reduced fare is available if travelling via Farnborough North. The Any Permitted ticket for this journey is valid both ways.

Thanks that makes sense and means that the validity in this instance is the same as it was previously before Farnborough was a routeing point. It seems strange they have removed it.

 

[Deerfold]

That's what I thought but then how do you actually travel legally. However, for my situation I think FenMan has the answer below

Mapped routes are not the only legitimate routes. There's also the shortest route (+ 3 miles) and through trains.

There's always going to be a shortest route so there will always be at least one way of managing to do a journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

...That's what I thought but then how do you actually travel legally. However, for my situation I think FenMan has the answer below....

I did say you can't draw a mapped route, direct trains always take a permitted route and the shortest route (or a route longer by no more than three miles/a route no more than three miles longer) is always a permitted route.

....If a journey does not have an origin routeing point and a destination
routeing point, its permitted route is (1) the shortest route served by a regular
passenger service or (2) a route no more then 3 miles longer or (3) any other route
permitted by an easement....

....Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer
by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route....

 

[yorkie]

Another Blackwater user here. I don't think you need to use the Routeing Guide for this journey.

The shortest route by rail, which is always valid, is BAW - Reading - Basingstoke - Winchester.

The route you mention: BAW - Farnborough North - walk - Farnborough Main - Winchester is also valid as it is shorter than the shortest route entirely by rail and is an acknowledged interchange i.e. it is recognised by NRE.

NB: This doesn't apply for a BAW - Basingstoke journey, as a restricted ticket at a reduced fare is available if travelling via Farnborough North. The Any Permitted ticket for this journey is valid both ways.

I completely agree with this interpretation of the rules.

The shortest route must be wholly by rail, but a route can be shorter than that (involving walking - but only if a recognised interchange, which as you say, this is)

 

[FenMan]

I completely agree with this interpretation of the rules.

The shortest route must be wholly by rail, but a route can be shorter than that (involving walking - but only if a recognised interchange, which as you say, this is)

Thanks Yorkie. I now have a question. The BAW - Basingstoke Any Permitted ticket has been changed to the route restriction Via Reading. It is more expensive than the Via Farnborough Nth ticket. The Any Permitted no longer exists. Can I use the Via Reading ticket to travel via Farnborough North? If not what is the most cost effective way to travel out by one route and return by the other?

I make this journey occasionally and would prefer to keep the flexibility of the old Any Permitted ticket. The first station west of Basingstoke with an Any Permitted routeing is Micheldever, but the Off Peak day return is more expensive:-

Basingstoke via Farnborough Nth - £8.50
Basingstoke via Reading - £9.90
Micheldever Any Permitted - £11.30

 

[34D]

Thanks Yorkie. I now have a question. The BAW - Basingstoke Any Permitted ticket has been changed to the route restriction Via Reading. It is more expensive than the Via Farnborough Nth ticket. The Any Permitted no longer exists. Can I use the Via Reading ticket to travel via Farnborough North?

The convention used to be (and I don't believe it has changed, but wait for someone who has read the new RG in depth to comment please) that a more expensive ticket is always valid by a cheaper route (even if that cheaper route isn't direct, shortest, within 3m of shortest, or mapped).

If not what is the most cost effective way to travel out by one route and return by the other?

You could always buy the cheaper ticket, then if it becomes convenient for your return journey, buy an excess (at the ticket office before boarding, otherwise at the first opportunity),

I would expect the excess to simply be £9.90 minus £8.50 (so £1.40) but depending on the clerk or the system the price may be slightly different. Section 4 of our guide to ticketing deals with excesses, for more information.

 

[John @ home]

Can I use the Via Reading ticket to travel via Farnborough North?

Yes, you can use a more expensive routed ticket to travel by a cheaper Permitted Route between the same origin and destination. See Example 3 on pages F16 and F17 of The National Routeing Guide in Detail for a worked example of this [1]. But this is not the most effective way to do it.

If not what is the most cost effective way to travel out by one route and return by the other?

Buy the cheaper £8.50 Off-Peak Day Return Blackwater - Basingstoke via Farnborough North ticket and ask to excess the appropriate (outward or return) leg of the journey to go via the more expensive route. This costs half the difference: in this instance 70p.

Unfortunately it is not possible to buy most excess fares online and not all rail staff know how to issue them correctly. But those who do are usually keen to assist. You may have to shop around to find a member of staff with the appropriate skill.

[1] - "If the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the “Manchester” routed fare, the ticketholder may not go via Manchester. If the “Any Permitted” fare is more than the “Manchester” routed fare it may be used via Manchester."

 

[SickyNicky]

Unfortunately it is not possible to buy most excess fares online and not all rail staff know how to issue them correctly. But those who do are usually keen to assist. You may have to shop around to find a member of staff with the appropriate skill.

And remember that change of route excesses can always be purchased on board the train, without penalty. You don't have to buy them from the ticket office if that's not convenient. See our guide to change of route excesses here - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1185791&postcount=3

 

[FenMan]

Many thanks to all!