Routeing query - London to Wilmslow

[Mintona]

Can anyone tell me if a London - Wilmslow anytime ticket is valid via Reading, Birmingham and Crewe?

Yeah, I know I should know but I don't really understand the routeing guide.

Cheers.

 

[mathmo]

Yes, it is, on map CS.

 

[General Zod]

Avantix shows that a London Terminals - Wilmslow "Any Permitted Route" Off Peak Return ticket has a 9I Restriction which allows departures from London Marylebone "By any train." Would this allow me to catch the first weekeday train out of Marylebone to Banbury and board a peak service XC train towards Wilmslow and Manchester ? In practise I would be using an Off Peak ticket on peak Banbury - BHM- Crewe trains.

i.e.

dep MYB : 0600 (Chiltern)
arr BAN : 0738

dep BAN : 0754 (XC)
arr STAFFORD 0929

dep STAFFORD 0935 (LM)
arr CREWE 0956

dep CREWE 1011 (Virgin)
arr Wimslow 1027

Would the Off Peak Return ticket be valid on the BAN - STAFFORD and STAFFORD - CREWE stretches ? Also could I use this ticket on peak Virgin services between BHM - Crewe and Crewe - Wilmslow ?

Zod

 

[yorkie]

There's no such thing as peak trains in that sense. The restriction code on the ticket is what matters.

 

[General Zod]

I've just stumbled across one of those stupid fare anomalies.

You can buy a London Terminals - Wilmslow OPR and travel on the 6am train out of Marylebone : £63.90

However, at that time of the morning you are only permitted to buy an Anytime Return from High Wycombe - Wilmslow. You are boarding the very same 6am London departure ( arr HWY @ 0642) but the ticket price is a whopping £108 !
So instead of paying £108 Anytime return HWY-WML could one just buy a £63.90 London Terminals - Wilmslow +AP route OPR and board the train at High Wycombe, thus making a saving of £44.10 ?? Could getting on at HWY with this ticket and continuing on to Wilmslow constitute a "Break of Journey" on the outward portion of the OPR and thus the practice be breaking some rules of carriage ? Perhaps "starting short" is not permitted ?

 

[glynn80]

Could getting on at HWY with this ticket and continue on to Wilmslow constitute a "Break of Journey" on the outward portion of the OPR and thus the practice be breaking some rules of carriage ? Perhaps "starting short" is not permitted ?

One of the few advantages Simplification brought, was that of outward portions of Off Peak Return tickets, being designated valid for break of journey on the outward portion, unless the validity code attached to the ticket specifically restricts this. Prior to Simplification there was an outright ban on break of journey for the outward portion of the old Saver Return.

The validity code 9I attached to the London Terminals to Wilmslow Off Peak Return does not restrict break of journey on the outward portion and therefore the passenger would be permitted to "start their journey short" at High Wycombe.

 

[yorkie]

I've just stumbled across one of those stupid fare anomalies.

You can buy a London Terminals - Wilmslow OPR and travel on the 6am train out of Marylebone : £63.90

However, at that time of the morning you are only permitted to buy an Anytime Return from High Wycombe - Wilmslow. You are boarding the very same 6am London departure ( arr HWY @ 0642) but the ticket price is a whopping £108 !
So instead of paying £108 Anytime return HWY-WML could one just buy a £63.90 London Terminals - Wilmslow +AP route OPR and board the train at High Wycombe, thus making a saving of £44.10 ??

Indeed as the fare is set by CrossCountry avoiding London, and the via London can't be used for doubling back.

Could getting on at HWY with this ticket and continuing on to Wilmslow constitute a "Break of Journey" on the outward portion of the OPR and thus the practice be breaking some rules of carriage ? Perhaps "starting short" is not permitted ?

It's starting short, not breaking your journey, and I don't think any walk-on fares disallow starting short (or finishing short). Virgin don't agree though as their ticket office staff threw a major wobbler at Chester.

 

[glynn80]

It's starting short, not breaking your journey, and I don't think any walk-on fares disallow starting short (or finishing short). Virgin don't agree though as their ticket office staff threw a major wobbler at Chester.

I'm not so sure this is the case, if the validity code restricted the break of journey

Break of Journey

Break of Journey, including starting or finishing a journey at an intermediate station between the origin and destination, is generally allowed as stated in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Break of Journey is not available:-

· with Advance tickets issued from a quota;

· where the restriction code specifically restricts this;

· for any ticket with a validity shown as not available at intermediate stations;

· At London Underground (LU) stations other than at LU stations on a Train Company route where Train Company trains are scheduled to call, and subject to the general terms and conditions of the ticket permitting break of journey. EXAMPLE: with an Off-Peak Day Return from Luton to Brighton, break of journey is permitted at Kentish Town or Farringdon.

These conditions do not apply to:

1. Travelcards, which allow unlimited journeys within their zones of availability.

2. Journeys made on LU tickets between LU-controlled stations on inter-available routes.


Break of journey is always available for changing between trains and stations to continue the journey.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage seem to corroborate what is stated within the FRPP:

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

The above reads as stating that the rights of starting, breaking and resuming a journey at an intermediate station may not apply if break of journey itself is prohibited.

So if a validity code restricted break of journey on the outward portion (such as validity code 1S), this would also restrict starting your journey short at an intermediate station.

 

[tony_mac]

the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications

The problem is that they don't really make it clear!

For instance, FGW say that you cannot 'break and resume' a journey (on an advance ticket), but without mentioning what happens if you don't intend to resume your journey.

As I recall, if you buy a ticket from thetrainline, it doesn't say anywhere that you can't start or finish short, even on an advance ticket. (just that you must travel on the booked trains)

NXEC are clear about it, but only with advance tickets.

The above reads as stating that the rights of starting, breaking and resuming a journey at an intermediate station may not apply if break of journey itself is prohibited.

While I wouldn't disagree with that - it's certainly a reasonable interpretation - I don't think that the train companies, in general, have actually make it clear, when they could have done very easily.

It's quite reasonable for somebody to assume that you can terminate your journey short without paying extra - that's just common sense.

Because of that, I think that if travelling short is not allowed then they should really say so explicitly, but I guess that they don't think it is important enough to waste 5 minutes on!

 

[glynn80]

The problem is that they don't really make it clear!

I thought the reference about the TOCs "making clear in their notices and other publications", was referring to which tickets restricted break of journey, rather than referring to information about passengers starting or finishing their journey short.

 

[tony_mac]

yes, could be - but they don't do that, either!

 

[yorkie]

"However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications."It is NOT made clear in any notice or publication whatsoever.

The top secret FRPP is NOT a "notice" available to the public!

 

[glynn80]

"However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications."It is NOT made clear in any notice or publication whatsoever.

The top secret FRPP is NOT a "notice" available to the public!

Your completely confused.

The prohibitions the NRCoC states are to be made clear is for break of journey not for starting and resuming journeys (although one does cause the other to not be valid). This is done so on the National Rail website under the Terms & Conditions of each ticket type. For example for the Terms & Conditions of the Anytime Return state:

You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel.

Furthermore under the Terms & Conditions of the Off Peak Return (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/offpeak_conditions.html), it clearly states

If you intend to start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey.

It is pretty clear to me what passengers need to do if they wish to start their journey short and it states this on the National Rail website.

 

[Mintona]

Yes, it is, on map CS.

Thank you very much.

 

[tony_mac]

I think, to be fair, 'train companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications' is definitely not the same thing as having to go to the national rail website and being able to find a telephone number to ring every time you want to buy a ticket!

The information may be available, but it isn't published, as it is supposed to be.

 

[glynn80]

I think, to be fair, 'train companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications' is definitely not the same thing as having to go to the national rail website and being able to find a telephone number to ring every time you want to buy a ticket!

The information may be available, but it isn't published, as it is supposed to be.

I do agree there seem to be no official source of this information in one place.

This does seem logical however as listing every flow where BoJ is prohibited would be rather extensive. Obviously a compromise has had to be reached where customers are required to telephone to check if BoJ is prohibited on their particular ticket and this is expressed clearly in the T&Cs on the National Rail website.

 

[yorkie]

I think, to be fair, 'train companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications' is definitely not the same thing as having to go to the national rail website and being able to find a telephone number to ring every time you want to buy a ticket!

The information may be available, but it isn't published, as it is supposed to be.

Absolutely. We are not confused and the matter is quite clear: it is unenforceable.

When the text in the NCoC referring to some "types" of ticket may not be valid for BOJ, at the time it was a case of some types were and some weren't. Since then, this absolute joke called "simplification" () has resulted in one type, "Off Peak", being generally valid but occasionally not valid for BOJ. Yet they do not provide any "notices" or "publications" telling you which ones!

They constantly go on about BOJ yet they seem confused about what BOJ actually means. They go on about "except to change trains" which is nonsense as that's not breaking it anyway, and they don't make it clear that you supposedly can't start/stop short, which are not the same as BOJ.