Routeing Tottenham Hale or Bishops Stortford to Liv St via Stratford

Status
Not open for further replies.

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
517
Location
london
Hello could someone help me with a routeing query please. Is Bishops Storford or Tottenham Hale to Liv St valid via Stratford?

My first attempt to use routeing guide but I am stuck. No direct trains* and not shortest route. Tried to check if was no more than three miles longer, but cannot find mileage for Stratford - Tottenham Hale in timetable. Table 22 gives distance to Severn Sisters instead.

But I think it is valid per map ST? That is a strange map as it shows a line from Edmonton Green to Tottenham Hale.

Any experts out there help me out? Thanks

*actually there is one direct train on a Saturday 0515 Bis - Liv St - does that mean this is a valid route all the time?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

steamybrian

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,171
Location
Kent
Hello could someone help me with a routeing query please. Is Bishops Storford or Tottenham Hale to Liv St valid via Stratford?

My first attempt to use routeing guide but I am stuck. No direct trains* and not shortest route. Tried to check if was no more than three miles longer, but cannot find mileage for Stratford - Tottenham Hale in timetable. Table 22 gives distance to Severn Sisters instead.

But I think it is valid per map ST? That is a strange map as it shows a line from Edmonton Green to Tottenham Hale.

Any experts out there help me out? Thanks

*actually there is one direct train on a Saturday 0515 Bis - Liv St - does that mean this is a valid route all the time?
I quick look at the National Rail timetable no. 22 shows there is a half hourly direct Mondays to Fridays service between Bishops Stortford to Stratford via Tottenham Hale departing at xx15 and xx47 mins past hour and leaving Stratford at xx00 andxx30 mins past the hour. I think the mileage given to Seven Sisters should be Tottenham Hale.
 

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
517
Location
london
using Bishops Stortford - London Terminals Any Permitted

If valid via Stratford, is it valid to enter / exit station or to get on tube or DLR (not that there is a barrier to stop access to DLR or tube)?
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,839
Previous communication with a senior member of ATOC suggested that missing mileages in the National Rail Timetable are due to an error. The actual mileages between these stations can still be used.

I calculate the shortest distance between Bishop's Stortford and London Liverpool Street as 30.25 miles (via Tottenham Hale) according to Table 22 of the National Rail Timetable.

Bishop's Stortford - Cheshunt is 16.25 miles [Table 22] and Cheshunt - London Liverpool Street via Seven Sisters is 14.5 miles [Table 21] so Bishop's Stortford - London Liverpool Street via Seven Sisters is 30.75 miles and is longer.

Bishop's Stortford - Tottenham Hale is 24.25 miles [Table 22] and Stratford London - London Liverpool Street is 4 miles [Table 5]. The mileage between Tottenham Hale and Stratford London is missing from Table 22, however railmiles gives a distance of 4 miles 19 chains. This gives a total of 32.5 miles between Bishop's Stortford and London Liverpool Street via Tottenham Hale and Stratford London. This is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route so should imo be valid, even with rounding.

Bishop's Stortford - London Terminals Route Any Permitted Off-Peak Return takes restriction 1A and has no break of journey restriction. The Off-Peak Day Return takes restriction D1 however the text for this restriction is missing from The Manual.
 

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
517
Location
london
Thank you mr bb21. Could you clarify the direct train rule. If via Stratford was more than 3 miles longer than shortest route does the fact that there is one direct train a week make it a valid route at all times or only on that direct train?

Also if more than 3 miles longer and no direct trains am I right in thinking that map does then apply to make via Stratford a valid route?

As an aside I think that off peak day return restriction may be missing because they have not updated it for changes since 20 May when GA introduced super off peak day returns - neither their TVMs nor national rail web site recognised the revised restrictions for weeks. It is confusing. Off pk day rtn has no evening restriction, off pk return does and so does super off peak day return but it is a different restriction to that for off pk return.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,839
Thank you mr bb21. Could you clarify the direct train rule. If via Stratford was more than 3 miles longer than shortest route does the fact that there is one direct train a week make it a valid route at all times or only on that direct train?
If that route were more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route and not a mapped route, then it would only be valid on that one direct train.

Also if more than 3 miles longer and no direct trains am I right in thinking that map does then apply to make via Stratford a valid route?
This is no causal effect. If a route is a mapped route then it is a permitted route. A route can be a mapped route and the shortest route or any other combination of qualifying criteria.

As an aside I think that off peak day return restriction may be missing because they have not updated it for changes since 20 May when GA introduced super off peak day returns
Thanks. I think that explains why.

The reason I was referring to the restriction texts is to see whether there is any restriction on break of journey.
 

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
517
Location
london
thanks - very helpful responses

as an aside i was surprised to realise that TVMs which are programmed not to sell off peak or super off peak before the valid times are not programmed to only sell off peak or super off peak when they have the same validity as anytime, eg on Saturdays and Sundays. Strikes me as a scam, or is this accepted practice ?
 

Indigo2

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,674
Location
Reading
There could be reasons for buying an anytime when an off-peak was valid. For example I seem to remember a few years ago at Leeds station you could get cheaper car parking if you bought a rail ticket over a certain value. An off-peak day return to Sheffield was just under that price but an anytime day return to Sheffield was just over it. So if you were parking your car and going to Sheffield when an off-peak ticket was valid, it was advantageous to buy the anytime ticket and get the parking discount, as the discount was greater than the difference between the anytime and off-peak fares.
 

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
517
Location
london
Sounds pretty contrived to me - not aware of any reason why someone at Bishops Stortford going to London and back on a Saturday would want an Anytime day return. Or why someone going one way on a weekday afternoon would not want super off peak rather than off peak single - validity is exactly the same other than irrelevant morning time restriction.

Anyway, why should it only work one way? If more expensive available at all times so should cheaper, so passengers travelling later can buy tickets in good time before first off peak train.

Isn't this an example of behaviour that TOCs can only get away with because they are a monopoly with regulators who are not up to controlling them in interests of passengers?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top