Routeing validity - Newcastle - Yarm

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158801

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I am trying to work out if a ticket from Newcastle to Yarm is valid to travel via Northallerton.

When I use the Nationrail.co.uk journey planner it says that a higher fare is payable via Northallerton but I can travel via Thornaby and Darlington at the usual Yarm-Newcastle fare.

I have tried to make sense of the Routeing Guide.

It says that maps EG and ER are valid.

Map EG does no show Northallerton but Map ER is ambiguous. It shows a line from Darlington to Middlesbrough. This could be line the through Dinsdale or it could be the line via Yarm.

Any help appreciated (included if map ER is valid or not).
 
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SickyNicky

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I am trying to work out if a ticket from Newcastle to Yarm is valid to travel via Northallerton.

When I use the Nationrail.co.uk journey planner it says that a higher fare is payable via Northallerton but I can travel via Thornaby and Darlington at the usual Yarm-Newcastle fare.

I have tried to make sense of the Routeing Guide.

It says that maps EG and ER are valid.

Map EG does no show Northallerton but Map ER is ambiguous. It shows a line from Darlington to Middlesbrough. This could be line the through Dinsdale or it could be the line via Yarm.

Any help appreciated (included if map ER is valid or not).

I would say yes, it's permitted by map EG.

Darlington is an appropriate routeing point for Yarm and map EG allows travel from Newcastle to Darlington. Once at Darlington the only way you can travel to Yarm without travelling through the Middlesborough routeing group is via Northallerton.

Northallerton is not part of a routeing group, so won't show on the map.
 

cuccir

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Warning - the following all comes with a health check that it may be utterly wrong, I don't profess to being an expert with the routeing guide. But I do profess to having used it before, and to being a little bored at work today with no-one else in the office:

Short answer - I don't think so, NO. Unlike StickyNicky, I don't think there's anything stopping you from travelling via Darlington and one of the stations in the Middlesbrough routeing group - I can't find guidance on this anywhere. Perhaps more pertinently, none of the online journey planners think this either! If I'm wrong, then it MIGHT be valid.

Workings out:
A. Is the route the shortest from origin to destination?
Now normally I'd use this website but it's down at the moment. So let's pretend that we've been rigorous and checked it and discovered that this is not the shortest route, or within 3 miles of the shortest ;)

B. Is there a direct train?
Nope

C. Routeing Guide
So, steps 1/2, Routeing Points:
Newcastle is a roueting point
Yarm - roueting points are Darlington, Middlesbrough Group (Thornaby, Eaglescliffe and Middlesbrough) and York

Step 3: Common routeing points:
None

Step 4: Ensuring that the routeing points are appropriate
A standard anytime single from Newcastle to Yarm is £11.30. To be appropriate, a routeing point has to pass the 'fares check' ie fares to/from a routeing point need to be the same or less than actual fares to the station to which you're travelling.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, York fails the fares check; Darlington and Middlesborough pass it.

Step 5/6/7, Permitted routes and maps:
In this case, the permitted routes are the permitted or mapped routes from Newcastle to the routeing points, plus the shortest route from the routeing points to Yarm

Newcastle - Darlington is valid on map EG. Newcastle to Middlesbrough Group is valid on map EG.

So to map EG! As we can see, this allows to travel via either the ECML to Darlington, or to Middlesborough group stations via the Durham Coast. You must then take the shortest route to Yarm from either Darlington, or from the Middlesborough group of stations. As this does not include Northallerton, you cannot travel via there.
 
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SickyNicky

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So to map EG! As we can see, this allows to travel via either the ECML to Darlington, or to Middlesborough group stations via the Durham Coast. You must then take the shortest route to Yarm from either Darlington, or from the Middlesborough group of stations. As this does not include Northallerton, you cannot travel via there.

Ok - I agree with everything up until this. My thoughts here are that the shortest route from Darlington to Yarm without passing through any other routeing point must be via Northallerton. And that's why I think it's valid.

I absolutely agree that you could go via Middlesborough Routeing Group but the routeing guide also says that Darlington is a routeing point for Yarm, and the only way that could be true would be via Northallerton.
 

cuccir

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Ok - I agree with everything up until this. My thoughts here are that the shortest route from Darlington to Yarm without passing through any other routeing point must be via Northallerton. And that's why I think it's valid.

I absolutely agree that you could go via Middlesborough Routeing Group but the routeing guide also says that Darlington is a routeing point for Yarm, and the only way that could be true would be via Northallerton.


Agreed, but all I can find in the routeing guide is "If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points". I don't see any mention of without passing through any other routeing point ?
 

SickyNicky

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Agreed, but all I can find in the routeing guide is "If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points". I don't see any mention of without passing through any other routeing point ?

No, you're right, it's not spelt out that the "shortest route to the routeing point" can't pass through another routeing point - I'm making assumptions based on the routeing guide data and what the booking engines allow. You can certainly buy such a ticket online. My "guess" is based on the Darlington routeing point being available from Yarm - if you were only allowed to go through Middlesborough, it shouldn't be there.

Dangerous stuff, I know, and not everyone will agree with me.

In any case, buy your ticket on line and obtain an itinerary and you'll be fine (hopefully I won't have to eat my words here!)
 
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bb21

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I would say yes, it's permitted by map EG.

Darlington is an appropriate routeing point for Yarm and map EG allows travel from Newcastle to Darlington. Once at Darlington the only way you can travel to Yarm without travelling through the Middlesborough routeing group is via Northallerton.

Northallerton is not part of a routeing group, so won't show on the map.

There were discussions previously as to whether the journey between the origin/destination station and the associated Routeing Point can pass through another Routeing Point.

Some of us agreed that it can as long as the additional Routeing Point passed through also passes the fares check rule, but not otherwise. I will have a dig for one of those discussions.
 
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