Routes that are standard class only where introduction of First could be attractive

[34D]

Subjective of course, but can anyone think of any routes where the provision of a First class compartment could be a reasonable and useful facility?

In yorkshire, about the only routes where I can justify this would be Leeds-Carlisle and Leeds-Morecambe and maybe at a push York-Blackpool. The other possible contenders which in my mind are York-Hull, Bradford-Manchester Vic, Sheffield-Lincoln and Leeds-Nottingham I've discounted.

Of course, it would perhaps be hard to diagram first class units, and there would be many reports of misallocations.

In my view a First class seat needs as a minimum a wide seat, a table suitable both for working papers and/or a laptop, and also a plug socket. Ideally there needs to be some form of free item, either a newspaper, or free drinks from a trolley (if such trolley is available).

What do others think, and are there any suitable candidate services from elsewhere around the country?

 

[scrapy]

ATW services from Manchester to Cardiff/South Wales and EMT Liverpool - Norwich must be some of the longest services without first class.

Sticking with Northern, Manchester to Stoke and Manchester to Crewe services pass through some pretty affluent areas so there may be a business case for a small first class section on these trains, even if only to extract revenue from Virgin/XC.

 

[dvboy]

ATW's Birmingham-Aberystwyth/Pwllheli/Holyhead
XC's Cardiff-Nottingham and Birmingham-Stansted Airport

 

[Butts]

Scotrail Dunblane to Edinburgh - although sometimes it has unscheduled 1st Class due to the stock used.

 

[Monty]

I've always thought London Waterloo - Windsor & Eton Riverside would be a good route to introduce a first class service. Considering the affluent areas the trains serve, could be a good little earner. The current plan is to remove First class from the 458s When they are rebuilt for introduction on the Windsor services which I think is a mistake.

 

[ainsworth74]

XC's Cardiff-Nottingham and Birmingham-Stansted Airport

Which already have first class...

 

[All Line Rover]

XC's Cardiff-Nottingham and Birmingham-Stansted Airport

Those services already have First Class, and comfortable it is too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've always thought London Waterloo - Windsor & Eton Riverside would be a good route to introduce a first class service. Considering the affluent areas the trains serve, could be a good little earner.

I agree that they should have First Class, but SWT made the decision to convert those trains to 3+2 seating and removed First Class in the process.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The current plan is to remove First class from the 458s web they are rebuilt which I think is a mistake.

First Class on the 458s is well used, in my experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATW services from Manchester to Cardiff/South Wales and EMT Liverpool - Norwich must be some of the longest services without first class.

Manchester to Cardiff should definitely have First Class. I'm not so sure about Liverpool to Norwich, though. It's not exactly a "premium route," is it?

Sticking with Northern, Manchester to Stoke and Manchester to Crewe services pass through some pretty affluent areas so there may be a business case for a small first class section on these trains, even if only to extract revenue from Virgin/XC.

I agree. What would happen when a Pacer turns up, though?

 

[ainsworth74]

Manchester to Cardiff should definitely have First Class. I'm not so sure about Liverpool to Norwich, though. It's not exactly a "premium route," is it?

I think both routes could do with first class. I think if you had a compartment of first class of about twelve seats or so it would be fairly well used on Liverpool - Norwich runs. Of course the problem is that whilst both routes could do with first class, until they deal with the capacity problems that already exist there's no point in putting first class in.

 

[oversteer]

All of Chiltern's routes

 

[tbtc]

Look at the Manchester and Leeds commuter belts - the lines to posh places in North Yorkshire (Leeds - Ilkley, Harrogate) and posh places in Cheshire/ Derbyshire (Mancester - Chester*/ Buxton) would surely be big enough for some FC market. But these services don't always have enough seats for current passengers, without taking seats out to create FC space, so I can't see it happening any time soon.

(* - the fast way through Warrington and the slow way through Knutsford)

In yorkshire, about the only routes where I can justify this would be Leeds-Carlisle and Leeds-Morecambe and maybe at a push York-Blackpool. The other possible contenders which in my mind are York-Hull, Bradford-Manchester Vic, Sheffield-Lincoln and Leeds-Nottingham I've discounted

Leeds - Morecambe justifies FC but Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham doesn't?

I'm not so sure about Liverpool to Norwich, though. It's not exactly a "premium route," is it?

I think FC would work between Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Nottingham, the population of these cities seem high enough for their to be a "business" market.

 

[furryfeet]

a couple of points in reply to All Line Rover ...

a) 1st class on an XC 170 does have a better seat pitch, but even then one can get one's legs stuck underneath the table !
Then you have to consider XC's expensive 1st class fares - are they worth it ?
b) From other posts on this forum, Arriva have difficulty providing enough seats for the passengers on the Manchester - Cardiff route as it is, so I would doubt that 1st class would be provided. 1st class is only there on the WAG express because of the subsidy from the Welsh government.

 

[Tibbs]

I've always thought London Waterloo - Windsor & Eton Riverside would be a good route to introduce a first class service. Considering the affluent areas the trains serve, could be a good little earner. The current plan is to remove First class from the 458s When they are rebuilt for introduction on the Windsor services which I think is a mistake.

That has to be a capacity issue. I (briefly) did this run and whilst getting on 2nd stop meant I had my pick of the seats, by they time the braying pin-striped hordes got on at Twickenham and Richmond the train the train was absolutely full to bursting. You could see the people at Putney sigh as the bulging carriages pulled past them!

 

[Deerfold]

Subjective of course, but can anyone think of any routes where the provision of a First class compartment could be a reasonable and useful facility?

In yorkshire, about the only routes where I can justify this would be Leeds-Carlisle and Leeds-Morecambe and maybe at a push York-Blackpool. The other possible contenders which in my mind are York-Hull, Bradford-Manchester Vic, Sheffield-Lincoln and Leeds-Nottingham I've discounted.

Any improvement on Leeds - Carlisle/Morecambe would be good. Some friends recently treated my dad to a trip up to Carlisle. He came back vowing never to do it again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Look at the Manchester and Leeds commuter belts - the lines to posh places in North Yorkshire (Leeds - Ilkley, Harrogate) and posh places in Cheshire/ Derbyshire (Mancester - Chester*/ Buxton) would surely be big enough for some FC market.

Hmm, with the current diagrams you'd end up with 1st class at Keighley (I know Skipton's reasonably posh for Yorkshire but it's not that busy compared with the West Yorkshire stations) and Bradford (and even Skipton-Keighley-Bradford). I've enjoyed unexpected declassified 1st on a trip from Leeds to Keighley though on a lost SWT train.

I'm also not sure how much you'd get regulars using it as many people get a Metrocard rather than a point-to-point season.

 

[Monty]

I agree that they should have First Class, but SWT made the decision to convert those trains to 3+2 seating and removed First Class in the process.

The trains were always declassified, even when they've had first class seating fitted within the trains. SWT took the decision to remove the first class seats to provide a marginal standing capacity. The good news is the that seating will be returned to it's original configuration for when they return to Reading route.

First Class on the 458s is well used, in my experience.

That is the case indeed, but since they will be largely restricted to services where first class accommodation is not offered, SWT has opted to removed first class seating in favour of more capacity.

That has to be a capacity issue. I (briefly) did this run and whilst getting on 2nd stop meant I had my pick of the seats, by they time the braying pin-striped hordes got on at Twickenham and Richmond the train the train was absolutely full to bursting. You could see the people at Putney sigh as the bulging carriages pulled past them!

Yes you are correct, this is the biggest problem if you wanted to introduce first class on that route, the trains during peak time are absolutely rammed.

 

[pemma]

posh places in Cheshire/ Derbyshire (Mancester - Chester*/ Buxton) would surely be big enough for some FC market. But these services don't always have enough seats for current passengers, without taking seats out to create FC space, so I can't see it happening any time soon.

I think from the Mid-Cheshire line you might get more First Class demand on a new Altrincham-Crewe via Middlewich service which provides good connections in to express services to Euston than on the existing service. I can't see business people wanting to wait around for 40 minutes at Chester station for the next train.

FNW seemed to improve patronage a bit when they put a 3 car 175 on the busiest morning Chester-Altrincham-Manchester service and a 158 on one of the evening departures from Manchester, so larger trains with comfortable 2+2 seating and some table seats would probably suit most passengers fine.

 

[317666]

XC's Birmingham-Stansted Airport

If anything I think that should have it's first class removed again, as standard can get very crowded with first sometimes remaining empty!

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Northern's Preston-Carlisle Cumbrian Coastliner, Blackpool-Carlisle Dalesrail, Blackpool-Manchester links (so Hazel Grove and Buxton), Blackpool-York (PLEASE) and Blackpool-Liverpool.

 

[Greenback]

I have heard three people bemoaning the lack of First Class on ATW's South Wales - Manchester trains in the last fortnight!

The first was an elderly couple who wer eon the train before Llanelli, and travelling to Hereford. The second was a younger lady who boarded at Gowerton and was going to Manchester.

As I only travel for around 18 minutes a day each way (llanelli-Swansea), I would hazard a guess that there would be a market for First Class on this route. However, I quite agree that it would be madness on the current 2 and 3 coach formations!

If only we had a railway with proper length trains in the regions, then we could provide the better accommodation for those who seem quite keen to pay extra for it!

 

[pemma]

I have heard three people bemoaning the lack of First Class on ATW's South Wales - Manchester trains in the last fortnight!

The first was an elderly couple who wer eon the train before Llanelli, and travelling to Hereford. The second was a younger lady who boarded at Gowerton and was going to Manchester.

As I only travel for around 18 minutes a day each way (llanelli-Swansea), I would hazard a guess that there would be a market for First Class on this route. However, I quite agree that it would be madness on the current 2 and 3 coach formations!

Standard Class being so crowded might mean people who wouldn't always pay to upgrade might bemoan the lack of First Class because they would rather pay extra for a seat for the whole journey in a quieter compartment.

 

[David Goddard]

The trains were always declassified, even when they've had first class seating fitted within the trains. SWT took the decision to remove the first class seats to provide a marginal standing capacity. The good news is the that seating will be returned to it's original configuration for when they return to Reading route.

Which supports my argument that they should have converted the 458s to Standard only in the first place.

XC's Cardiff-Nottingham and Birmingham-Stansted Airport.

And you get a free drink from the trolley too!

 

[tbtc]

Standard Class being so crowded might mean people who wouldn't always pay to upgrade might bemoan the lack of First Class because they would rather pay extra for a seat for the whole journey in a quieter compartment.

The cynic in me wonders whether some routes that saw a bit capacity increase in recent years (e.g. Leeds - London doubled to half hourly) saw a decrease in First Class ticket sales because people were less likely to pay a premium for First Class when Standard Class seats were no longer as scarce?

 

[tempests1]

Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham services (Newliners) would benefit from First Class. Obviously that's not going to happen anytime soon with the Class 455 stock currently used on the route. Before the 455's were Introduced 4Vep's were the usual stock on the line and the first class was apparantly well used.

 

[eastwestdivide]

So two pages of posts, but has anyone thought about general criteria for providing 1st class?
Should it be:
length of journey (distance or time?),
"posh" factor of places served,
business travel potential,
speed of the service (express vs stopping service?)
level of crowding in standard class?
anything else?

By some of those criteria, you could generalise and say many or most services operated by 158s/175s might qualify.

 

[dvboy]

Which already have first class...

I stand corrected, I didn't think XC's Turbostars had First Class.

 

[34D]

Leeds - Morecambe justifies FC but Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham doesn't?

Leeds-Sheffield and Sheffield-Nottingham already have first class services.

 

[Blindtraveler]

any future improvement to West Highland line services should surely include longer trains and FC? Same with Dumfries/Stranrar to Glasgow, both would get the business market ticking surely?

 

[Scotrail84]

Scotrail Dunblane to Edinburgh - although sometimes it has unscheduled 1st Class due to the stock used.

Would never get used, people quite happy to sit in it when they dinny have to pay for it though.

 

[tbtc]

Leeds-Sheffield and Sheffield-Nottingham already have first class services.

But do you honestly believe there'd be more demand for First Class between Leeds and Morecambe (realistically Lancaster is the only place of much size that you'd serve), especially given the infrequent nature of the route (good luck using it for business meetings) than there would be on the Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham service?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sheffield-Nottingham already have first class services.

Well, off-peak there's the Northern service (no First Class) and the EMT service (no First Class). There's about 4tpd direct that actually have it (the EMT London services), hardly that many of them!

 

[WestCoast]

Leeds-Morecambe ?

FC on 144s and 150s? That would, erm, interesting.

Northern's Blackpool to York and Leeds to Carlisle might support First Class along the lines of the offering on TPE, but a regular trolley service would probably be of more value (I know about the Friends of S&C trolley).