Routes that should be valid but aren't

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Merseysider, 11 May 2015.

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  1. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Setting aside the matter of what route costs more/what costs less for a minute, (as these are constantly subject to change and except for associating stations with RP, price does not determine validity), focussing purely on the reasonableness of the route itself, and not delving into Liverpool-Manc-London as that has been addressed in another thread; can anybody advise if any of these routes were valid at privatisation? Alternatively if anyone can remember them definitely being valid at some point, that too would be helpful.

    Crewe to Liverpool via Warrington is reasonable, but not permitted at time of writing.

    Manchester to Wrexham via Liverpool is reasonable, especially true since the introduction of 30m non-stop TPEs from Manchester to Liverpool, which can allow quicker journeys than via Crewe. Not permitted.

    Liverpool to Salford Crescent via Wigan is reasonable, but seems to fluctuate between valid/not valid depending on journey planner used, and is not valid in the NRG. Liverpool to Manchester via Wigan is slightly more debatable but not too unreasonable.

    Newcastle to Manchester via Sheffield (and Chinley) isn't too much of a detour but I'm 50/50 on whether this should be valid or not because it adds +30m to journey time.

    Any thoughts/further examples?
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Seems totally reasonable to me, as you might want to do Liverpool Central-Kirkby-Manchester. Is that really not Permitted?
     
  3. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    Liverpool Exchange to Manchester Victoria via Wigan was a valid route with through services (before electrification from Liverpool to Kirkby. ) - and the same fare as the alternative routes via Earlestown, via Warrington Central, or even via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level & Lymm before that closed.
     
  4. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Liverpool Group to Salford Crescent (and Manchester Group) is only permitted on map NO or NR. These are Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington/Earlestown.

    I think this is one that would be fairly easy to chase up and get changed.
     
  5. First class

    First class Established Member

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    Liverpool-Manchester is also valid via Chester based on the within 3 miles of shortest route allowance if I recall correctly.
     
  6. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Now that is interesting - thanks. I'll look at that properly in the morning.
     
  7. blakey1152

    blakey1152 Member

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    Possibly slightly off topic but I find it odd that there's a fare from Stratford International to Dartford via Gravesend (Using HS1) but go one station further in on the same line there are no fares from Stratford International to Crayford via Gravesend.

    You would use exactly the same trains to make the journey but no fare - yet I think it's a reasonable route rather than going back in to London and out again!
     
  8. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I can't see how it can be within 3 miles of the shortest route unless Chester has been relocated! Chester to Manchester is 40 miles,against 33 for Liverpool to Manchester.
     
  9. Envy123

    Envy123 Member

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    If you want to go from Hadley Wood to Kings Cross, the fastest route is to double back via Potters Bar. Not valid if you have a Zone 6 Travelcard, unfortunately.
     
  10. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Loughborough to Ely and beyond is not valid via Nottingham. It should be valid because;

    • Time wise, it is quicker to go via Nottingham
    • Going via Nottingham only requires one change. Going via Leicester requires two changes.

    There is one direct train on Mondays to Saturdays - at just after 6am. It uses a curve which avoids Leicester. The shortest route makes use of this curve, but if you want to travel at any time after 6am, you'd have to go via Leicester.

    The route via Nottingham is a few metres (less than a mile) longer than the route via Leicester.

    I raised this with ATOC and EMT a few months ago, hoping to have the route via Nottingham added to the routeing guide. I'd like to think I'm not the only one who thinks that passengers prefer less changes and a quicker journey time - but EMT's response was completely non committal. Guards don't have a problem accepting the tickets and station staff advise the route via Nottingham - which is just as well!
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2015
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Not that I hope it ever happens to anybody, but it would be interesting to see what the result would be if station staff advise to go via Nottingham and a guard sticks to the letter of the law...
     
  12. mikeg

    mikeg Member

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    York to Stafford via Tamworth or Birmingha isn't valid... It's valid only via Manchester.
    Which is odd, since there is a 'Via Manchester' fare and an 'any permitted' fare. I'm hoping it's an error that will soon be rectified but am not holding my breath as I brought it to the attention of ATOC some time ago.

    York to Stoke on Trent used to be valid via Derby but isn't any more. A very useful route if there's engineering work on North Transpennine route or WCML too.
     
  13. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Yes, indeed.

    Thankfully, unless things have changed, Hooton to Manchester is permitted via Chester (and quite sensibly too).

    I'll fire off an email to ATOC and TPE tomorrow about LIV-WGN-SLD.
     
  14. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I bet it would be accepted anyway, it is totally reasonable. I guess then there are no valid routes to Manchester via Kirkby until you reach the point that it's shortest? Ludicrous.
     
  15. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I believe it would be accepted as plenty of guards still consider the 'reasonable route' principle.

    It is, however, cheaper to split at Wigan anyway so there is no need to use a through ticket that way unless it's a period return.
     
  16. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Or I suppose you want to come back in the evening, as the service from Wigan to Kirkby finishes around 6pm.
     
  17. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Hooton-Manchester is valid via Chester and Stockport, but it isn't shown as being valid via Chester and Warrington on NRE.

    This surprises me, as the shortest route is via Ellesmere Port and Warrington, and going via Chester and Warrington instead seems like precisely the situation easement 14 was designed for.
     
  18. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    The route is also permitted via Crewe, with exactly the same journey times as via Liverpool or Chester/Wbq.

    Edited to add that I agree with your interpretation of easement 14; perhaps it's being overridden by another negative easement somewhere?

    Hint hint ATOC, it'd be great to see some of these routes fixed (please) ;)
     
    Last edited: 14 May 2015
  19. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    My understanding is that since easement 14 is listed as a local easement, it only applies to journeys where the origin and destination have a routeing point in common, or to a local journey between an origin and origin routeing point (or destination routeing point and destination).
     
  20. Ianigsy

    Ianigsy Member

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    About ten years ago I was routed Leeds-Piccadilly-Warrington-Crewe one Sunday morning- seems strange that Liverpool-Crewe shouldn't be allowed, but if Virgin start diverting via Earlestown on a regular basis, that could get interesting.

    I wonder if the routing guide thinks that there are still platforms on the Liverpool lines at Salford Central?
     
  21. MK Tom

    MK Tom Established Member

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    I was really rather surprised that Oxford to Salisbury via Didcot and Swindon wasn't a valid route.
     
  22. DeeGee

    DeeGee Member

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    Despite constant promises, there are no direct trains from Cleethorpes to London.

    The only permitted options are TPE to Doncaster then VTEC to King's Cross, or EMT via Lincoln to Newark North Gate and VTEC to King's Cross. Or I can get off the EMT Train at Lincoln and get the single VTEC direct to King's Cross

    However, it is not permitted to get out of the EMT train at Lincoln Central and get the direct EMT train to St Pancras.
     
  23. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    It's no great loss given its so slow!
     
  24. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Is York Sheffield still not valid via Leeds (otherwise than the direct train rule) or did this get changed?
     
  25. jfollows

    jfollows Member

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    London to Wilmslow via Stockport.

    Used to be allowed in BR days, unofficially if not officially.
    Technically not allowed by the original routing guide until double-back through Cheadle Hulme was added as an easement a couple of years ago.
    More recently has been disallowed again by creating Cheadle Hulme as a routing point (used to be Stockport).
    Valid by getting off at Macclesfield, then local service to Cheadle Hulme, local service to Wilmslow.
    Or have I misunderstood the routing guide? i welcome thoughts and opinions!
     
  26. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    When was this not valid ? It is certainly valid now.
     
  27. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    London to Wilmslow is not valid via Stockport on any route purely northbound. One can travel via Cheadle Hulme by using the line north from Stoke and then south on the line towards Crewe.

    One can travel via Stockport if one travels London - Sheffield - Wilmslow.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Liverpool - Manchester now returns results via Wigan (and Kirkby) on NRE.

    It didn't last week ;)
     
  28. crehld

    crehld Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Yes I saw this. Says it was in response to customer comments!
     
  29. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Well that's saved me one protracted email exchange ;)
     
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Very pleased to see this sorted so quickly.
     
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