Routes through Edinburgh

[enginedin]

Living in Edinburgh, I've noticed that without exception (I think!), every service stops at both Waverley and Haymarket, despite being only 4 minutes apart. To me, this seems a little odd for services like Aberdeen to Plymouth (normally Penzance, but this is one of the reductions XC have made in response to lower passenger numbers I think), when they would normally only serve the main station in each town: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C82268/2021-01-04. I guess Bristol TM / Parkway are different because of the convenience of the South Wales line through Parkway.

Is there a reason for this? Is there a historical reason for trains needing to stop at both, or is it just because of the bottleneck of the Princes Street Gardens junctions?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Living in Edinburgh, I've noticed that without exception (I think!), every service stops at both Waverley and Haymarket, despite being only 4 minutes apart. To me, this seems a little odd for services like Aberdeen to Plymouth (normally Penzance, but this is one of the reductions XC have made in response to lower passenger numbers I think), when they would normally only serve the main station in each town: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C82268/2021-01-04. I guess Bristol TM / Parkway are different because of the convenience of the South Wales line through Parkway.

Is there a reason for this? Is there a historical reason for trains needing to stop at both, or is it just because of the bottleneck of the Princes Street Gardens junctions?

Haymarket is a major interchange station for passengers travelling:
from the west (eg Glasgow and intermediate stations by any of the various routes) to stations to stations in Fife and beyond
from the south (WCML) to stations towards Bathgate, Falkirk, Stirling etc as well as Fife etc.
In the direction I have listed it is (normally) cross platform.
The stops in long distance trains - XC ECML WCML- cater for these flows rather than trailing into Edinburgh and finding the correct platform out of the 20 available for the train back out, so it is both convenient and time saving.
Also to a lesser extent on these long distance trains it caters for those whose destination is in that area of the city, perhaps more so for travel to / from the Carlisle route than trains towards Newcastle.
It is also an interchange for the tram or bus to Edinburgh Airport.

I am sure it also helps with pathing trains into/out of Waverley.

Whilst perhaps difficult to find a parallel in the UK (other than TPE trains calling at Man Picc, Oxford Road and Victoria) but in Europe Brussels is an excellent example serving different areas of the city as well as permitting interchange at the eg Nord rather than Midi.

 

[alistairlees]

Living in Edinburgh, I've noticed that without exception (I think!), every service stops at both Waverley and Haymarket, despite being only 4 minutes apart. To me, this seems a little odd for services like Aberdeen to Plymouth (normally Penzance, but this is one of the reductions XC have made in response to lower passenger numbers I think), when they would normally only serve the main station in each town: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C82268/2021-01-04. I guess Bristol TM / Parkway are different because of the convenience of the South Wales line through Parkway.

Is there a reason for this? Is there a historical reason for trains needing to stop at both, or is it just because of the bottleneck of the Princes Street Gardens junctions?

The exception is Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[30907]

Interesting question.
I got the impression many years ago that Haymarket was well sited for city destinations generally, and I think that will be the main reason.

I thought that almost every daytime train had always stopped at Haymarket (maybe only once when the train passed through twice, like the Aberdeen-Carlisle-Birmingham-Plymouth(-Penzance?) of a generation ago).
However, checking back to 1962 I discovered that East Coast trains and Aberdeen expresses didnt stop at Haymarket (and back then West Coast trains used Princes Street anyway).

I don't think congestion is the reason - after all, outbound trains call at Haymarket too.

Cheshire Scot mentions Brussels - Berlin is another good example of a city with a major through route (now 2!) and multiple Intercity stations, as is Warsaw. And in London, us south-of-the-Thames people are used to London Bridge-Waterloo East-Charing Cross and of course Thameslink.

 

[waverley47]

So, two reasons. Capacity and convenience.

As mentioned above, from a passengers perspective, it serves quite a large area of West Edinburgh. It's a busy station in its own right. It's also right next to busy public transport lines, it's a quicker interchange than going through to Waverley and back. It's convenient to just say that everything passing through will stop, because that way there isn't any confusion.

Also pathing. Trains leave Waverley on minimum headway (three minutes). The platform reoccupation at Haymarket is three minutes (train stopping, transfer of passengers, and restart). If everything stops at Haymarket, then these two match up, and all trains can leave at three minute intervals, stop, and restart from Haymarket while still at three minute intervals. It's also useful from a platform use perspective to have trains entering and leaving Waverley at regular intervals that don't overlap.

Its just efficient that everything is timetabled exactly the same between the two stations, so you don't lose out on minutes.

The exception is Caledonian Sleeper.

Indeed, although this has to do with the station being too long for the long trains, and closed for cleaning.

 

[Clansman]

Haymarket takes around 10k passengers a week out of Waverley and allows them to interchange to services they'd otherwise have to wait an hour for. This is more than Farringdon, Marylebone, and double that of Newcastle.

I'll give an example.

A few weeks ago I caught the 10:25 TPE from Manchester Picc to Haymarket (arriving 13:24), and then changing onto the 13:36 to Aberdeen. The Aberdeen service leaves Waverley at the same time as the TPE service arrives (13:29), therefore forcing me to spend an hour in Waverley without Haymarket.

Haymarket was a former terminus until the tunnels were built to hook up Waverley, so it's very much a case of a happy case of convenience for those looking to travel Northward from the West, both within Edinburgh and the wider country - and it's less timetable hassle as a result for connections.

 

[tbtc]

pathing. Trains leave Waverley on minimum headway (three minutes). The platform reoccupation at Haymarket is three minutes (train stopping, transfer of passengers, and restart). If everything stops at Haymarket, then these two match up, and all trains can leave at three minute intervals, stop, and restart from Haymarket while still at three minute intervals. It's also useful from a platform use perspective to have trains entering and leaving Waverley at regular intervals that don't overlap.

Its just efficient that everything is timetabled exactly the same between the two stations, so you don't lose out on minutes

That's a great explanation - well detailed.

The Castlefield corridor in Manchester has the added complication that only some stop at Deansgate, which can mean some longer distance services stuck behind a local train - since everything stops at Haymarket there's not that issue, things are better regulated.

(I say "everything" - from memory the Glasgow Central - London Kings Cross services didn't used to stop in one direction due to the platform length, but old age means I can't remember in which direction that applied!)

I'd also add that, with some services, like the XC from Aberdeen that the OP mentioned, essentially replaced "internal" Scottish services, so the equivalent ScotRail service from Aberdeen would be stopping at Haymarket - therefore it makes sense for LNER to provide the same kind of stops (since a passenger would expect everything to stop there)

(ScotRail were very good at identifying "InterCIty" stock that was otherwise idle, which is one reason why the Highland Chieftan came into being - AFAICR the last HST off Craigentinny wasn't until lunchtime whilst the first HST retuned to Craigentinny around six o'clock - so you could extend one service back to start at Inverness early morning with a return journey in the evening peak without needing additional trains - allowing ScotRail to use the stock that might have been providing an Inverness - Edinburgh service to be used to beef up other Scottish services - canny stuff)

 

[waverley47]

That's a great explanation - well detailed.

We'll there are some more curiosities associated with this stretch.

The time for trains to travel between the stations is also two minutes give or take, and that there is three aspect signalling and that there are three signal sections between the stations. This means that a train leaving the Waverley is just reaching the second signal as third clears in front of them, so each train has a clear run through.

Also that all trains are timetabled the same to there is no noticeable variation in acceleration dct

 

[InOban]

I believe that up until recent events traffic at Haymarket was increasing more rapidly than Waverley partly because the financial and conference centre is closer.

 

[Scotrail84]

So, two reasons. Capacity and convenience.

As mentioned above, from a passengers perspective, it serves quite a large area of West Edinburgh. It's a busy station in its own right. It's also right next to busy public transport lines, it's a quicker interchange than going through to Waverley and back. It's convenient to just say that everything passing through will stop, because that way there isn't any confusion.

Also pathing. Trains leave Waverley on minimum headway (three minutes). The platform reoccupation at Haymarket is three minutes (train stopping, transfer of passengers, and restart). If everything stops at Haymarket, then these two match up, and all trains can leave at three minute intervals, stop, and restart from Haymarket while still at three minute intervals. It's also useful from a platform use perspective to have trains entering and leaving Waverley at regular intervals that don't overlap.

Its just efficient that everything is timetabled exactly the same between the two stations, so you don't lose out on minutes.


Indeed, although this has to do with the station being too long for the long trains, and closed for cleaning.

1C11/1B26 can easily be accommodated on platforms 3 an 4 but Haymarket has never been a stop and never will be.

 

[SteveM70]

Is there something of a safety argument too? If 99.9% of trains stop at Waverley, I’d imagine many passengers would become conditioned to this and stand relatively closer to the platform edge. (I don’t believe they have the Piccadilly 13/14 shouty people to stop them). Then when the very occasional non-stop train comes through is there not a heightened risk of an accident?

 

[Watershed]

Also pathing. Trains leave Waverley on minimum headway (three minutes). The platform reoccupation at Haymarket is three minutes (train stopping, transfer of passengers, and restart). If everything stops at Haymarket, then these two match up, and all trains can leave at three minute intervals, stop, and restart from Haymarket while still at three minute intervals.

Although the headway along that stretch of line is 3 mins, the platform reoccupation at Haymarket is 2½ mins and the minimum dwell time at Haymarket is 1 min.

So whilst you can depart trains from Edinburgh 3 mins apart if necessary, if two services are 3 mins apart, the second will need (½) before Haymarket. The third service then can't depart Edinburgh until 7½ mins after the first unless you add ever increasing amounts of (), so a 3 mins headway only works for the second service in a group of minimum headway services.

The practical headway is therefore 3½ mins, and that's when the service in front has a standard 1 minute dwell - for many of the IC services it's longer than that, and so headway effectively increases.

This is why departures can't be xx00, xx03, xx06, xx09, xx12 etc. but at best xx00, xx03, xx07, xx10, xx14 (the variable 3 and 4 minute gaps being due to GBTT rounding).

Might only sound a small difference, 3 vs 3½ mins, but it makes a big difference as to the timetable that can be achieved at a location as constrained as Haymarket. It's a cut from a maximum of 20tph to 17tph.

You could achieve a fully 3 minute headway service if nothing called at Haymarket (and it would help if Haymarket East Jn were grade separated - pigs might fly...).

That's how they manage it on lots of routes in and out of London, with usually nothing calling before diverging off the "common" route, or recessing into a station with multiple platforms per direction (e.g. Reading, London Bridge, Milton Keynes).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Of note in the past regarding Haymarket, were the old CrossCountry services via the WCML towards Aberdeen. These reversed at Waverley and called at Haymarket both on their way into and out of Edinburgh.

 

[Senex]

Cheshire Scot mentions Brussels - Berlin is another good example of a city with a major through route (now 2!) and multiple Intercity stations, as is Warsaw. And in London, us south-of-the-Thames people are used to London Bridge-Waterloo East-Charing Cross and of course Thameslink.

Brussels is relatively recent. Berlin is the old and interesting one. The city start with a ring of terminals, just like other places. In the 1880s the Stadtbahn was built as a deliberate extended city terminus and at first most long-distance trains were switched to it. The pattern was that for trains to the east the empty stock would be brought in from Grunewald, would call at Charlottenburg, Zoo, Friedrichstraße, and Schlesischer Bahnhof and then run out eastwards whilst trains for the west would have the stock come in from Rummelsburg and would perform the reverse sequence of stops. This is why the destination-boards on long-distance trains that many of us will still remember always used to read "Berlin Stadtbahn", not (say) Berlin Ostbahnhof—the only example I can think of where the stated terminus was a railway line, not a railway station! There has never been any sort of Paris or London equivalent, and Edinburgh is probably the nearest we had in this country till very recent times. Manchester, with the tedium of everything calling at Oxford Road, is a very new case (though one could just about argue a case for London Road and Stockport being a long-standing equivalent of Berlin Schlesischer Bahnhof and Berlin Charlottenburg). Brussels and Madrid are more recent examples. I'd count Antwerp and Leipzig as rather different cases.

 

[Ianno87]

Brussels is relatively recent. Berlin is the old and interesting one. The city start with a ring of terminals, just like other places. In the 1880s the Stadtbahn was built as a deliberate extended city terminus and at first most long-distance trains were switched to it. The pattern was that for trains to the east the empty stock would be brought in from Grunewald, would call at Charlottenburg, Zoo, Friedrichstraße, and Schlesischer Bahnhof and then run out eastwards whilst trains for the west would have the stock come in from Rummelsburg and would perform the reverse sequence of stops. This is why the destination-boards on long-distance trains that many of us will still remember always used to read "Berlin Stadtbahn", not (say) Berlin Ostbahnhof—the only example I can think of where the stated terminus was a railway line, not a railway station! There has never been any sort of Paris or London equivalent, and Edinburgh is probably the nearest we had in this country till very recent times. Manchester, with the tedium of everything calling at Oxford Road, is a very new case (though one could just about argue a case for London Road and Stockport being a long-standing equivalent of Berlin Schlesischer Bahnhof and Berlin Charlottenburg). Brussels and Madrid are more recent examples. I'd count Antwerp and Leipzig as rather different cases.

Also add Paris Montparnasse/Massy TGV, Hamburg (Hauptbahnhof, Dammtor and Altona), and to a lesser extent Cologne/Koln (Hauptbahnhof and Messe/Deutz)

 

[hexagon789]

(ScotRail were very good at identifying "InterCIty" stock that was otherwise idle, which is one reason why the Highland Chieftan came into being - AFAICR the last HST off Craigentinny wasn't until lunchtime whilst the first HST retuned to Craigentinny around six o'clock - so you could extend one service back to start at Inverness early morning with a return journey in the evening peak without needing additional trains - allowing ScotRail to use the stock that might have been providing an Inverness - Edinburgh service to be used to beef up other Scottish services - canny stuff)

Firstly it was extended to Perth in 1982, the Inverness extension was also originally summer only but that was changed very quickly because the service took off

I thought that almost every daytime train had always stopped at Haymarket (maybe only once when the train passed through twice, like the Aberdeen-Carlisle-Birmingham-Plymouth(-Penzance?) of a generation ago).
However, checking back to 1962 I discovered that East Coast trains and Aberdeen expresses didnt stop at Haymarket (and back then West Coast trains used Princes Street anyway).

Even in 1984 many of the HSTs from London to Aberdeen and vice-versa skipped Haymarket, some ran non-stop to Dundee and the Flying Scotsman only called at Dundee, Arbroath and Montrose both ways.

 

[221129]

The exception is Caledonian Sleeper.

And the couple of XC services that don't call.

 

[InOban]

The ones that are routed round the Sub and reach Waverley from the east.

 

[221129]

The ones that are routed round the Sub and reach Waverley from the east.

1D99 passes through Haymarket without calling (SX)

 

[enginedin]

1D99 passes through Haymarket

good find!

 

[waverley47]

Although the headway along that stretch of line is 3 mins, the platform reoccupation at Haymarket is 2½ mins and the minimum dwell time at Haymarket is 1 min.

So whilst you can depart trains from Edinburgh 3 mins apart if necessary, if two services are 3 mins apart, the second will need (½) before Haymarket. The third service then can't depart Edinburgh until 7½ mins after the first unless you add ever increasing amounts of (), so a 3 mins headway only works for the second service in a group of minimum headway services.

The practical headway is therefore 3½ mins, and that's when the service in front has a standard 1 minute dwell - for many of the IC services it's longer than that, and so headway effectively increases.

This is why departures can't be xx00, xx03, xx06, xx09, xx12 etc. but at best xx00, xx03, xx07, xx10, xx14 (the variable 3 and 4 minute gaps being due to GBTT rounding).

Interesting points, I didn't realise it was slightly more.

It's also useful from a control perspective to keep things in the platform at Haymarket until the junction clears, so that crossing moves on Haymarket east jn can be smoother.

 

[Ken H]

Interesting question.
I got the impression many years ago that Haymarket was well sited for city destinations generally, and I think that will be the main reason.

I thought that almost every daytime train had always stopped at Haymarket (maybe only once when the train passed through twice, like the Aberdeen-Carlisle-Birmingham-Plymouth(-Penzance?) of a generation ago).
However, checking back to 1962 I discovered that East Coast trains and Aberdeen expresses didnt stop at Haymarket (and back then West Coast trains used Princes Street anyway).

I don't think congestion is the reason - after all, outbound trains call at Haymarket too.

Cheshire Scot mentions Brussels - Berlin is another good example of a city with a major through route (now 2!) and multiple Intercity stations, as is Warsaw. And in London, us south-of-the-Thames people are used to London Bridge-Waterloo East-Charing Cross and of course Thameslink.

Portsmouth. All trains stop at Portsmouth and Southsea if they are going on to Harbour.

 

[SargeNpton]

Haymarket used to have a capacity problem - not in the number of trains, but in the number of passengers that could be safely accommodated on the platforms and in the concourse.

Since the station was improved that is not so much of an issue and, as a consequence, some trains now call there that did not do so in the past.

 

[InOban]

1D99 passes through Haymarket without calling (SX)

Any obvious reason why?

 

[221129]

Any obvious reason why?

Not that I can see.

 

[91103eastcoast]

Not that I can see.

1D99 0627 Edinburgh to Glasgow Central is only 3 minutes in front of 2B75 0654 Lanark to Glasgow Central at Lanark Junction. If the XC stopped at Haymarket then it would be behind the Lanark train at Lanark Junction. In theory I suppose it could leave Edinburgh earlier but that might reduce the time the train spends at the depot and add further pathing complications getting the train from Craigentinny to Edinburgh

 

[scotrail158713]

1D99 0627 Edinburgh to Glasgow Central is only 3 minutes in front of 2B75 0654 Lanark to Glasgow Central at Lanark Junction. If the XC stopped at Haymarket then it would be behind the Lanark train at Lanark Junction. In theory I suppose it could leave Edinburgh earlier but that might reduce the time the train spends at the depot and add further pathing complications getting the train from Craigentinny to Edinburgh

I find the railways fascinating in this respect where services 50 miles apart can affect each other

 

[route101]

And the couple of XC services that don't call.

The MK4 services to Glasgow didnt call when it was 2 hourly I think.

 

[Scotrail84]

The MK4 services to Glasgow didnt call when it was 2 hourly I think.

They did., Haymarket was a stop in both directions for KGX-GLC services.

 

[ajrm]

I'd also add that, with some services, like the XC from Aberdeen that the OP mentioned, essentially replaced "internal" Scottish services, so the equivalent ScotRail service from Aberdeen would be stopping at Haymarket - therefore it makes sense for LNER to provide the same kind of stops (since a passenger would expect everything to stop there)

LNER crew changes on the southbound Aberdeen services take place at Haymarket rather than Waverley.