Routing: Doncaster / Retford to Nottingham via ECML

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lyndhurst25

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Retford to Nottingham - maps ER+DG (also EM, SH+MM).

ER alone would allow Retford>Grantham>Nottingham, but ER+DG implies that only Retford>Newark>Nottingham is allowed. Does "ER+DG" mean that you have to use DG?



Doncaster to Nottingham - maps ER, ER+SH+SY, NE+EM, SY, SY+SH+EM.

This means that Doncaster>Newark>Nottingham is not allowed. You are forced to go via Retford>Lincoln>Newark or via Grantham. This seems strange as both are longer distance journies.
 
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yorkie

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This means that Doncaster>Newark>Nottingham is not allowed.
I can't check the maps right now, but you do not need to consult the routeing guide to determine that this route is permitted. It is the shortest route!:)
 

clagmonster

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Retford to Nottingham - maps ER+DG (also EM, SH+MM).

ER alone would allow Retford>Grantham>Nottingham, but ER+DG implies that only Retford>Newark>Nottingham is allowed. Does "ER+DG" mean that you have to use DG?
The Routeing Guide states:
"Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used e.g)
ER+PN+BD, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing
point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via
any route within that map without doubling back. This is repeated until the
final map is reached then via any route within that map until the final
routeing point is reached.
Example (e) - Darlington to Shrewsbury via permitted route ER+PN+BD. This
allows travel from Darlington to York via Map ER, York to Manchester via Map
PN and Manchester to Shrewsbury via Map BD.
ALL MAPS NEED TO BE CONSULTED IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

So you have to use all maps. Map DG does not include Doncaster, so you must use it to arrive at Nottingham. The intercept points between the two maps are at: Nottingham (obviously useless as you would be using only one map), Newark, Lincoln and Barnetby. Lincoln is useless as it would require doubling back from Newark. Therefore the permitted routes are:
ER: Doncaster-Barnetby
DG: Barnetby-Lincoln-Newark-Nottingham

ER: Doncaster-Retford-Newark
DG: Newark-Nottingham

Plus any that appear in the other routeing permissions. If you feel it should be a prmitted route (I don't think it is unreasonable), you could also contact East Coast to request that they have ATOC change the Routeing Guide.
 

lyndhurst25

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I can't check the maps right now, but you do not need to consult the routeing guide to determine that this route is permitted. It is the shortest route!:)

Doncaster>Newark>Nottingham is the shortest route? So it is!
I thought Doncaster>Retford>Worksop>Nottingham was shorter; it definitely looks shorter on the National Rail map. In fact it's 3.5 miles longer (or 2.5 miles if you count the North Gate to Castle walk). They must have straightened out the squiggles!

Retford>Newark>Nottingham is the shortest route too then. So why does Retford get ER+DG in the Routeing Guide, whereas Doncaster doesn't?
 
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Skymonster

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The Routeing Guide states:
"Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used e.g)
ER+PN+BD, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing
point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via
any route within that map without doubling back. This is repeated until the
final map is reached then via any route within that map until the final
routeing point is reached.
Example (e) - Darlington to Shrewsbury via permitted route ER+PN+BD. This
allows travel from Darlington to York via Map ER, York to Manchester via Map
PN and Manchester to Shrewsbury via Map BD.
ALL MAPS NEED TO BE CONSULTED IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

So you have to use all maps. Map DG does not include Doncaster, so you must use it to arrive at Nottingham. The intercept points between the two maps are at: Nottingham (obviously useless as you would be using only one map), Newark, Lincoln and Barnetby. Lincoln is useless as it would require doubling back from Newark. Therefore the permitted routes are:
ER: Doncaster-Barnetby
DG: Barnetby-Lincoln-Newark-Nottingham

ER: Doncaster-Retford-Newark
DG: Newark-Nottingham
.

Can't understand why you can't also go via Granthan too, just on ER... Sure the rules say each map must be CONSULTED in sequence but with ER+DG, ER alone can get you to Nottingham (via Grantham)... DG can be consulted, but the routing guide rules don't explicitly say you must actually use a train on each map ...

Surely, ER+DG means you can go all the way on ER (i.e. via Grantham) or on both maps via the routes you've mentioned above? In fact, if I go to National Rail, many of the Doncaster-Nottingham routings it offers are via Grantham...

Andy
 

clagmonster

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"the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back"
So from Doncaster to one of Nottingham, Newark, Lincoln and Barnetby.

"then via any route within that map without doubling back"
If you choose Nottingham, how are you using 'any routing within that map', where 'that map' refers to map DG? As far as I can see, you are not using any rounting within map DG.
 

Skymonster

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So IF you are correct:

1. How the heck are the general public expected to understand that? Another case of the rules being a load of do-do which ineviatably will catch people out
2. Why does NationalRail suggest to me a combination of trains via Grantham and not mention restriction of "via Grantham"?

In any case, if anyone challenged this in court I bet the railway would be laughed put of court - what effectively you and the routing guide is suggesting is that you can go from
Doncaster to somewhere in the Nottingham group via Grantham (and Nottingham) but you can't actually go to Nottingham itself via Grantham.

Anyway, the words are contradictory again - you have to use a route in each map versus you have to consult each map. I'd contend a "route" on the second map included going nowhere, and NationRail's suggestions for Doncaster to Nottingham would back me up that via Grantham was valid. I've done this route myself and not been challenged, and if I ever was I'd definitely go as far as court to argue against it.

Andy
 

clagmonster

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what effectively you and the routing guide is suggesting is that you can go from
Doncaster to somewhere in the Nottingham group via Grantham (and Nottingham) but you can't actually go to Nottingham itself via Grantham.
No, I would argue that Doncaster to anywhere in the Nottingham Group is not valid via Grantham for exactly the same reason that I don't believe Doncaster to Nottingham is not valid via Grantham.
 

Skymonster

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You still haven't answered the other part of the question:

NationRail will offer Doncaster-Nottingham via Grantham, and TheTrainaline will sell Doncaster-Nottingham via Grantham, and both specify that the reslulting ticket is valid on an "any permitted" basis. By that, I mean both show train times via Grantham, and if I select those timings via Grantham I get offered the opportunity to buy an "any permitted" ticket for that journey.

How can I be offered the opportunity on both of those sites to buy an "any permitted" return ticket from Doncaster to Nottingham, selecting trains that connect at Grantham, if the route is not valid? And how could the railway penalise any customer doing holding such a ticket from travelling on that route when they'd been sold an "any permitted" ticket with trains via Grantham selected when they bought that ticket?

Andy
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So you have to use all maps. Map DG does not include Doncaster, so you must use it to arrive at Nottingham. The intercept points between the two maps are at: Nottingham (obviously useless as you would be using only one map), Newark, Lincoln and Barnetby. Lincoln is useless as it would require doubling back from Newark. Therefore the permitted routes are:
ER: Doncaster-Barnetby
DG: Barnetby-Lincoln-Newark-Nottingham

ER: Doncaster-Retford-Newark
DG: Newark-Nottingham.

Ok, looking back at all the "evidence" and checking the routing guide myself, here's where you've caused confusion and an inapplicable debate... Doncaster-Nottingham doesn't specify ER+DG - but Doncaster-Nottingham allows ER on its own amongst many others, so via Grantham is entirely legit.

Andy
 

John @ home

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Can't understand why you can't also go via Granthan too, just on ER. Sure the rules say each map must be CONSULTED in sequence but with ER+DG, ER alone can get you to Nottingham (via Grantham). DG can be consulted, but the routing guide rules don't explicitly say you must actually use a train on each map.
This is a question Clive D W Feather asked ATOC in 1998 and he received an unambiguous answer.
Clive D W Feather to ATOC
31 July 1998

Question 6: if a permitted route involves two or more maps, is it necessary to use all those maps? For example, if a route is given as CS+MM and both routeing points are on map CS, is it necessary to utilise map MM as part of the route?

http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn1.html
ATOC to Clive D W Feather
25 September 1998

Qu.6: If a permitted route involves two or more maps, is it necessary to use all those maps?

Yes; if, for example, the route codes between two routeing points shown in Section C are CS+MM, then both these maps must be used. The fact that both the first and the final routeing points happen to be on the same map does not automatically mean that a route using just that map is a permitted route. Step 7 (page A5) is clear on this, and Section F page F9 gives an example (Ashford-Lincoln).

http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn2.html
 

yorkie

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1. How the heck are the general public expected to understand that? Another case of the rules being a load of do-do which ineviatably will catch people out
I don't disagree with your concerns, but to answer the question, the general public are expected to use a ticket booking site or National Rail Enquiries, to determine permitted routes.
National Rail (ATOC) said:
The ticket that you have selected may require you to travel via a specific route. Our Journey Planner will have already taken this into account with the selection that you have made and will only have shown tickets that are valid for the selected trains....
Of course, they do occasionally make mistakes, and sometimes it is not obvious exactly what ticket(s) National Rail Enquiries, and some ticket booking sites, are trying to show as valid (as identified in another topic today), however it is important to note that if a ticket is bought online with an itinerary, then that itinerary is expected to be honoured, even if a mistake has been made. The customer can be assured that the route will be considered valid for that particular ticket.

This was recently put to the test with some rather 'extreme' deviations (see the Private Eye article a few weeks ago) and so far I am not aware of any cases where the rail industry has failed to honour tickets via booked itineraries and several people have confirmed to me that they have had re-assurances that itineraries shown as valid will be honoured. Yes there have been some guards not following correct procedure, but refunds have been given where this has occurred.

Therefore, anyone who has concerns about valid routes need not worry too much about understanding the Routeing Guide, and simply book tickets via the route they wish and they can confidently expect that to be honoured.

Of course, understanding the Routeing Guide is an option that we all have, but it's not 'expected' nor 'compulsory'.

Understanding the Routeing Guide may particularly assist those of us who wish to not be constrained by booking in advance yet also confidently use routes and know they are valid. This forum runs fares workshops and one of the items we cover is the Routeing Guide. Can I interest you in joining us some time? :)
 

clagmonster

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Ok, looking back at all the "evidence" and checking the routing guide myself, here's where you've caused confusion and an inapplicable debate... Doncaster-Nottingham doesn't specify ER+DG - but Doncaster-Nottingham allows ER on its own amongst many others, so via Grantham is entirely legit.

Andy
Looking back, I think I've confused myself. This was raised in the first post by Lyndhurst25 as being an issue for Retford-Nottingham the Doncaster issue was something else entirely. For that point my anlysis works.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
NationRail will offer Doncaster-Nottingham via Grantham, and TheTrainaline will sell Doncaster-Nottingham via Grantham, and both specify that the reslulting ticket is valid on an "any permitted" basis. By that, I mean both show train times via Grantham, and if I select those timings via Grantham I get offered the opportunity to buy an "any permitted" ticket for that journey.

How can I be offered the opportunity on both of those sites to buy an "any permitted" return ticket from Doncaster to Nottingham, selecting trains that connect at Grantham, if the route is not valid? And how could the railway penalise any customer doing holding such a ticket from travelling on that route when they'd been sold an "any permitted" ticket with trains via Grantham selected when they bought that ticket?
If you were given an erroneous itinerary with your ticket, I would expect the guard to withdraw the ticket, issue a free replacement, and complete a travel irregularity report to report the booking systems fault.

Personally, I think it is a reasonable route and should be valid. It could be that if you contacted the relevant companies about the issue, they might agree and have the routeing guide changed accordingly by adding the extra routeing permission.
 

yorkie

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If you were given an erroneous itinerary with your ticket, I would expect the guard to withdraw the ticket, issue a free replacement, and complete a travel irregularity report to report the booking systems fault..
I wouldn't; I'd expect the guard to honour it! But the guard can do this if he/she wishes.

There are very few cases of the guard incorrectly charging the customer who then has to claim back (this should not happen) but in all known cases of this happening, a complaint by the customer has resulted in a full refund as a minimum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Personally, I think it is a reasonable route and should be valid.
If it is reasonable it will be accepted.

It's also worth checking to see if it's ever been permitted...
 

clagmonster

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Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I suspect that the majority of guards won't know that this isn't permitted - as we both agree it is a reasonable enough route. However, if a knowledgable guard did happen to know that this wasn't permitted, then provided the ticket was issued with a travel itinerary via Grantham then a TIR would be the appropriate course of action. It would then be up to the operator of the train (East Coast, Hull Trains or East Midlands Trains), to decide on the appropriate course of action, which would be highly unlikely to involve the pasenger very much at all.

I agree in such circumstances, whilst the book may allow the guard to ching up a passenger for the appropriate excess, it would be very poor service when the ticket was issued in error and there are better ways around it.
 

Skymonster

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This is a question Clive D W Feather asked ATOC in 1998 and he received an unambiguous answer.

He may have received an unambiguous ANSWER, but the quote cites an ambiguous section of the routing guide and also provides an incorrect example...

Qu.6: If a permitted route involves two or more maps, is it necessary to use all those maps?

Yes; if, for example, the route codes between two routeing points shown in Section C are CS+MM, then both these maps must be used. The fact that both the first and the final routeing points happen to be on the same map does not automatically mean that a route using just that map is a permitted route. Step 7 (page A5) is clear on this, and Section F page F9 gives an example (Ashford-Lincoln).

Step 7 (page A5) actually says "ALL MAPS MUST BE CONSULTED IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER" - consulted! OK, so it also says that you must use a route on the first map and a route on the next map too, but there's nowhere in the guide, instructions or appendeces where it specifically says that using a route means travelling on a train between two different stations.

Furthermore, in respect of the part of section F cited by ATOC as supportive of their position ("Ashford-Lincoln" on page F9), the example in section F suggests that both Ashford and Lincoln appear on map CS but that you can't use map CS. That bit is correct as Ashford-Lincoln is route London and there's no mention of map CS, but in fact Lincoln does not appear anywhere on map CS anyway, so that example is invalid.

The wording context in the instructions in the routing guide for using multiple maps such as MAPA+MAPB is additive (MAPA and MAPB), rather than subtractive (MAPA but not if also MAPB). I'd therefore suggest that were these contradictory wordings ever challenged legally ATOC might have an argument on it's hands.

Andy
 
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