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Routing Guide

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bryheruk

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How do I get hold of a copy of the Routing Guide?
Basically I would like to travel from Newton Abbot to Sheffield next Sunday; but given that the journey involves a bus between Exeter and Taunton; am tempted to travel via Reading (overnighting there if necessary). However the fare I normally get of an Off-Peak 1st Return priced at £205 does not seem to be available on the National Rail/Cross County web sites. Can anyone tell me if this ticket is valid via Reading and/or for that matter via Manchester. Many thanks in advance? Chris
 
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clagmonster

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Routing guide: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/enrg.htm
Note, you will need to have pop-ups allowed.
For this example, firstly the £205 off peak 1st return is a route not London ticket, so you can't go via London.
Possible routing points for Newton Abbot are Plymouth and Exeter. A Plymouth-Sheffield ticket is more expensive the the Newton Abbot, so Plymouth is an inapropriate routing point. Exeter-Sheffield is the same price as Newton Abbot, so Exeter is an appropriate routing point.
Sheffield is a member of the Sheffield group.
Exeter group to Sheffield group is valid as follows (excluding London routings):
Map CE
Exeter-Taunton-Bristol-(Newport)-Gloucester-Worcester-Smethwick-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Bristol-(Newport)-Gloucester-Barnt Green-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Map MW+SW
Exeter-Taunton-Bristol-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Westbury-(Bath)-Chippenham-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Bristol-Bath-(Westbury)-Chippenham-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Westbury-Bath-Bristol-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Map MW+WE
Exeter-Taunton-Westbury-(Bath)-Chippenham-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Westbury-Reading-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Map MW+WR
Only offers routes already mentioned above.

So yes, travel via Reading is allowed, in the final route detailed above.
 

glynn80

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Routing guide: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/enrg.htm
Note, you will need to have pop-ups allowed.
For this example, firstly the £205 off peak 1st return is a route not London ticket, so you can't go via London.
Possible routing points for Newton Abbot are Plymouth and Exeter. A Plymouth-Sheffield ticket is more expensive the the Newton Abbot, so Plymouth is an inapropriate routing point. Exeter-Sheffield is the same price as Newton Abbot, so Exeter is an appropriate routing point.
Sheffield is a member of the Sheffield group.
Exeter group to Sheffield group is valid as follows (excluding London routings):
Map CE
Exeter-Taunton-Bristol-(Newport)-Gloucester-Worcester-Smethwick-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Bristol-(Newport)-Gloucester-Barnt Green-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Map MW+SW
Exeter-Taunton-Bristol-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Westbury-(Bath)-Chippenham-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Bristol-Bath-(Westbury)-Chippenham-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Westbury-Bath-Bristol-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Map MW+WE
Exeter-Taunton-Westbury-(Bath)-Chippenham-Swindon-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Exeter-Taunton-Westbury-Reading-Didcot-Oxford-Banbury-(Coventry)-Birmingham-(Lichfield)-Tamworth-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield
Map MW+WR
Only offers routes already mentioned above.

So yes, travel via Reading is allowed, in the final route detailed above.

Bear in mind technically, if you do travel from Reading to Sheffield via Oxford the next day you will not be able to travel via Bristol the night before as this will be doubling back between Didcot Parkway and Reading (forbidden in the routeing guide), however in practise you will almost certainly get away with going via Bristol the night before as on the XC train they will have no way of checking which route you infact took on FGW.
 

clagmonster

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Surely though, and I admit that this is unlikely, but in the event of a ticket inspection between Didcot (or the stop previous to Reading if the train doesn't stop at Didcot) and Reading, then the OP would not have a valid ticket as there would be no way for him to leave Reading without doubling back.
 

glynn80

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Surely though, and I admit that this is unlikely, but in the event of a ticket inspection between Didcot (or the stop previous to Reading if the train doesn't stop at Didcot) and Reading, then the OP would not have a valid ticket as there would be no way for him to leave Reading without doubling back.

Ah yes good point, didn't check the other routes, he'd only be able to travel as far as Didcot!
 

bryheruk

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Thank you for the replies and the link to the Routing Guide - very helpful. Just to clarify, travel via Manchester or Stockport is NOT permitted on this ticket?
 

yorkie

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I thought you were allowed to double back between Didcot and Reading on longer distance journeys? And there are cheaper "NOT READING" tickets in some cases where the easement isn't allowed.
 

John @ home

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I thought you were allowed to double back between Didcot and Reading on longer distance journeys?

Easement 000082
Journeys via Swindon and Didcot or via Swindon to Didcot and routed Not London may double back between Reading and Didcot. This easements applies in both directions.

John
 

glynn80

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So the OP would be allowed to travel via Bristol and Reading on his route to Sheffield. Although working with easements it is usually advisable to print the various parts of information off, as guards will often refuse to believe their existance.
 

clagmonster

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In that case, that information is correct. I didn't think to look for an easement. My apologies to the OP for any confusion that I have caused.
 

Techniquest

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Can someone provide me with a link to the Routing Guide, as I can't find any link to it myself. Need to look up Hereford to Bicester Town and check if it's valid via Banbury or not.

Ta for any help in advance.
 

Techniquest

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Thanks gents, didn't see the link earlier in the thread...:oops:

EDIT: Having now scoured through that, Hereford to Bicester Town isn't valid via Banbury. Grr.
 
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John @ home

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Hereford to Bicester Town isn't valid via Banbury.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that.

Hereford is a Routeing Point. The four Routeing Points for Bicester Town are Banbury Group, Greenford Underground, London Group and Oxford. So we need to do a Fares Check to find out which Routeing Point(s) are appropriate for a Hereford to Bicester Town journey.

The Fares Check is Defined in "How to use the National Routeing Guide": if you are not certain that a particular routeing point for the destination station is the correct one. Compare the fare from that routeing point to the origin station with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station. Note 1

For all fare types, Greenford and London have higher fares to Hereford than the Hereford - Bicester Town fare. So these are not appropriate Routeing Points for this journey.

For all fare types, Oxford has the same fare to Hereford as the Hereford - Bicester Town fare. So Oxford is an appropriate Routeing Point for this journey.

Banbury is a more interesting case. If travelling on a First Anytime ticket, the Banbury - Hereford fare (FOR = £69.60, FOS = £34.80) is higher than the Hereford - Bicester Town fare (FOR = £64, FDS = £32), so Banbury is not an appropriate Routeing Point.

But if travelling on a Standard Anytime Return (SOR) or a Standard Off Peak Return (SVR), the Banbury - Hereford fare (SOR=£36.30, SVR=£28.50) is lower than the Hereford - Bicester Town fare (SOR=£37.60, SVR=£29), so Banbury is an appropriate Routeing Point.

But there are five fare types between Hereford and Bicester Town where there is no corresponding fare from Banbury to use for comparison:
£42.20 First Off Peak Day Return (FCR)
£24.00 Standard Anytime Day Return (SDR)
£18.80 Standard Anytime Day Single (SDS)
£17.50 Standard Off Peak Day Return (CDR)
£17.40 Standard Off Peak Day Single (CDS)

"How to use the National Routeing Guide" states:
All fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type.
If the customer requires a Single then Single fares should be compared. If the customer requires a Saver then Saver fares should be compared. In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open) fares should be used for comparison purposes.


This does not deal explicitly with the situation where there is no fare of the same type, but it does seem to imply that if one gets stuck, one should compare standard singles.

The £25 Banbury - Hereford SOS is higher than the £18.80 Hereford - Bicester Town SDS, so I think Banbury is not an appropriate Routeing Point for these five fare types.

In summary, Hereford to Bicester Town is valid via Banbury with a SVR or SOR ticket, but in my opinion not with a FOR, FDS, FCR, SDR, SDS, CDR or CDS.

Fares Simplification?!

John

Note 1 I think there may well be an error in the NRG here, and that it may be intended that one should compare the fare from the origin station to the routeing point with the fare for the throughout journey. It seems daft to compare a Hereford to Bicester fare with an Oxford to Hereford one. Fortunately, in this case the fares are the same in each direction but that is often not the case. Do others think that the NRG is in error here?
 
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Andy

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Is there not an online routing guide, as im sure ive used one in the past?
 

glynn80

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Is there not an online routing guide, as im sure ive used one in the past?

There is CORE (Clive's Online Routeing Guide) which was last updated in 2005, until recently it was still pretty accurate but after many changes it is pretty much redundant now.

Also regarding the fares check rule, it's simple for "Techniquest"

If he wants to travel on an Anytime Return
Hereford to Bicester Town
SOR R 37.60
Hereford to Banbury
SOR R 36.30
The fares check rule thus allows Banbury as a routeing point

If he wants to travel on an Anytime Single
Hereford to Banbury
SOS S 25.00
Hereford to Bicester Town
SDS S 18.80
(There is no SOS)
The fares check rule thus disallows Banbury as a routeing point

If he wants to travel on an Off Peak Return
Hereford to Bicester Town
SVR 4N R 29.00
Hereford to Banbury
SVR CS R 28.50
The fares check rule thus allows Banbury as a routeing point

If he wants to travel on an Off Peak Day Return or Off Peak Day Single

Hereford to Bicester Town has these fares but Hereford to Banbury does not thus the STD tickets must be compares
Hereford to Banbury
SOS S 25.00
Hereford to Bicester Town
SDS S 18.80
(There is no SOS)
The fares check rule thus disallows Banbury as a routeing point

If he wants to travel on an First Anytime Return

Hereford to Banbury
FOR R 69.60
Hereford to Bicester Town
FOR R 64.00
The fares check rule thus disallows Banbury as a routeing point

If he wants to travel on an First Anytime Single or First Anytime Day Single

Hereford to Banbury has a First Anytime Single and Hereford to Bicester Town has a First Anytime Day Single so the STD fares must be compared
Hereford to Banbury
SOS S 25.00
Hereford to Bicester Town
SDS S 18.80
(There is no SOS)
The fares check rule thus disallows Banbury as a routeing point



Of course "Techniquest" would not have to check all these fares, he'd only have to check the fare applicable to him. Even if he wanted to find out which would would be valid as he really wanted to go via Birmingham, it would jus be cheaper for him to just split his tickets at Banbury.
 

Techniquest

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Thanks peeps, I thought I'd best look it up since when I went to do the Bicester Town line some time ago, the train was late arriving into Oxford, so the guard looked up the journey and suggested I got the next Voyager to Banbury and Chiltern to Bicester North, walking to Bicester Town. This was on a CDR at the time. As it was, we missed the Voyager and I just made it off a Turbo to Banbury from where I got a Chiltern Turbo to Bicester North.

Coming back, I got the GW Turbo back to Oxford (by F**K that was boring!) then got a HST from Oxford.

Was rather hoping a Hereford to Bicester Town CDR was valid on the route I took last time, but never mind.

Thanks again everyone for the help.
 

yorkie

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Fares Simplification?!
None of the rules and conditions have been simplified for 'walk-on' fares, indeed some are now more complicated.

All they have done is made the names "simpler", for example a Penrith to Preston Off Peak ticket is valid at any time, the "fare name describes when you can buy or use your ticket", in this case the name "Off Peak" describes that you can use it "anytime"..

A Worcester to Birmingham Off Peak is not valid on the 0846 from Worcester Foregate Street, and a Worcester to Birmingham Off Peak Day is valid on the 0846, so the Day ticket is more restrictive, "Where there is more than one Off-Peak fare for a journey, the cheaper fare with more restrictions will be named Super Off-Peak", clearly the Off Peak being more restrictive than the Off Peak Day fits in with this definition of more restrictive. Clearly this makes sense as the 0846 is "less busy" therefore the Off Peak Day is valid, however for passengers on an Off Peak, the 0846 is not "less busy" therefore the ticket is not valid.

Also, in line with the previous example, a York to Doncaster Off Peak is valid on all York to Doncaster trains, because "Off-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy", and indeed the early trains on this route are less busy, because passengers travelling to London have to re-mortgage their house in order to afford the fare, so only pasengers doing regional journeys can afford to use these trains. A York to Doncaster Off Peak Day is not valid on early morning services, again "Where there is more than one Off-Peak fare for a journey, the cheaper fare with more restrictions will be named Super Off-Peak" and clearly the Off Peak Day being more restrictive fits in with this. "The names (Off Peak and Off Peak Day) describe when you can use a ticket"

Finally, A Lockerbie to Motherwell Anytime Day is not valid for departures before 0930. The name Anytime "describes when you can use a ticket" therefore it is valid after 0930 and this ticket is "perfect for people who need complete flexibility". Passengers who wish to travel before 0930 need to pay an additional £8.10 for an Anytime (without the Day).

simple.jpg
:D

(Source for all restrictions: Avantix Traveller. Source for all quotes: Simple fares).
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Add to that, the fact that there are no 'Anytime' return fares from Manchester to stations in North Wales, they are all 'Off-Peak' returns that are valid at anytime.
 
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