Routing in London during SWR Strike

maxbarnish

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2017
Messages
107
18th December, I hold advance ticket on 10.39 Cranbrook to Waterloo, connecting on a through ticket to Woolwich Arsenal. However, due to the SWR strike, this train is not running and the best route appears to use GWR via Paddington, which has been authorised according to SWR website. This would mean using the SWR replacement bus from Cranbrook at 10.25 and departing Exeter St Davids at 11.15 for London Paddington estimated arrival 13.29.

A member of the family was travelling through London Waterloo the other day and asked this question for me, but I do want to check that the staff answer was correct.

I have been told that I must get the underground (Bakerloo line) to London Waterloo and then rejoin the original line of route to Woolwich Arsenal getting on at Waterloo East, and cannot alight the underground at Charing Cross and get the Southeastern service from there. Obviously, this circuitous route makes it harder to make the connection - it's 14.12 from Charing Cross or 14.15 from Waterloo East - I believe it's in compliance with minimum connection time for Charing Cross but not for Waterloo East, although I may make it as I am fairly fast. If I make this train, I arrive on time into Woolwich. The advice on SWR website regarding advance tickets is to aim to arrive at the originally booked time.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Indigo2

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,641
Location
Reading
If you're worried about making the connection, then change at Baker Street to the Jubilee Line (cross-platform change, shortest walk at the front of the train) and then alight at Southwark for Waterloo East. I have on occasion made a connection at Waterloo East this way which I would have missed if changing at Charing Cross (it's a long walk from the Bakerloo Line platforms to Charing Cross mainline platforms; the interchange at Southwark is shorter, on top of the Jubilee Line being faster than the Bakerloo Line).

It doesn't sound very logical to me that you must interchange at Waterloo-Waterloo East rather than at Charing Cross though. Where were you advised that? All the advance fares between Cranbrook and Woolwich Arsenal have a Maltese Cross on the ticket, so there should be no issue with operating the barriers at Paddington and Charing Cross in any case.
 

30907

Established Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
9,073
Location
Airedale
NRE tells me to go via Farringdon, but that assumes the Thameslink to Rainham is running normally!
If I avoid Farringdon, it gives me Charing Cross not Waterloo.
But as indigo2 says, your ticket will be OK to exit the tube where you choose, so you can ignore the advice you were given.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
22,718
It doesn't sound very logical to me that you must interchange at Waterloo-Waterloo East rather than at Charing Cross though. Where were you advised that? All the advance fares between Cranbrook and Woolwich Arsenal have a Maltese Cross on the ticket, so there should be no issue with operating the barriers at Paddington and Charing Cross in any case.
I expect that advice is from Waterloo based staff. They live in their own little world, and are probably unaware that many of their western stations have valid routes into Paddington even when there is no disruption...
 

maxbarnish

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2017
Messages
107
Thanks for this - the advice was from Waterloo station yes. I will check if it has a Maltese cross. I was specifically advised it would not be valid on Southeastern between Charing Cross and Waterloo East as there is no ticket acceptance with Southeastern. I don't know if the London Terminals rule has any relevance here. But the Southwark idea sounds really good and may be faster - I think it would be accepted anyway as it's the station for Waterloo East which is part of the Waterloo complex
 

maxbarnish

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2017
Messages
107
So, while I would be fairly confident the ticket would work the underground barriers at Charing Cross, I think it would be unlikely to work the main station barriers and I would be unlikely to be let through for the reason that Southeastern hasn't given ticket acceptance.

For the same reason, I don't think I can go via Farringdon, as Thameslink hasn't got ticket acceptance and I do see a lot of RPIs on Thameslink so can't risk it.

The Southwark routing seems fine and probably as good as any.
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
9,712
Thanks for this - the advice was from Waterloo station yes. I will check if it has a Maltese cross. I was specifically advised it would not be valid on Southeastern between Charing Cross and Waterloo East as there is no ticket acceptance with Southeastern. I don't know if the London Terminals rule has any relevance here. But the Southwark idea sounds really good and may be faster - I think it would be accepted anyway as it's the station for Waterloo East which is part of the Waterloo complex
As your ticket is for South Western Railway only and there is no acceptance on South Eastern Railway, according to staff, I would argue that South Eastern services cannot be used and that includes Charring Cross.
 

30907

Established Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
9,073
Location
Airedale
As your ticket is for South Western Railway only and there is no acceptance on South Eastern Railway, according to staff, I would argue that South Eastern services cannot be used and that includes Charring Cross.
The fare must be SW + AND CONNECTIONS, and there isn't a question about acceptance as SE and SW don't overlap.
Southwark is a good option, but if you decide not to use it I would choose the most convenient route from Paddington and take a screenshot of the journey planner that allows it.
 

BluePenguin

Member
Joined
26 Sep 2016
Messages
878
Location
Kent
So, while I would be fairly confident the ticket would work the underground barriers at Charing Cross, I think it would be unlikely to work the main station barriers and I would be unlikely to be let through for the reason that Southeastern hasn't given ticket acceptance.

For the same reason, I don't think I can go via Farringdon, as Thameslink hasn't got ticket acceptance and I do see a lot of RPIs on Thameslink so can't risk it.

The Southwark routing seems fine and probably as good as any.
Charing Cross is a valid London Terminal for Woolwich Arsenal. London Terminal tickets are valid into several other terminals other than Waterloo.

This has nothing to do with ticket acceptance with Southeastern. Travelling from Waterloo East can be easier with luggage although not the only option. Thameslink also serve Woolwich so boarding at Farringdon is permitted - the rules have not changed since Thameslink took over this route from Southeastern.


As your ticket is for South Western Railway only and there is no acceptance on South Eastern Railway, according to staff, I would argue that South Eastern services cannot be used and that includes Charring Cross.
As above, Southeastern services can be used to travel to Woolwich Arsenal from Charing Cross and indeed from other terminals.
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
9,712
Charing Cross is a valid London Terminal for Woolwich Arsenal. London Terminal tickets are valid into several other terminals other than Waterloo.

This has nothing to do with ticket acceptance with Southeastern. Travelling from Waterloo East can be easier with luggage although not the only option. Thameslink also serve Woolwich so boarding at Farringdon is permitted - the rules have not changed since Thameslink took over this route from Southeastern.



As above, Southeastern services can be used to travel to Woolwich Arsenal from Charing Cross and indeed from other terminals.
They hold an advanced purchase ticket, which is for South Western Railway only. They would have to get to Charring Cross in order to start the second ticket and surely if there is underground acceptance, that wouldn't stretch to being allowed out at Charring Cross, when it isn't a station served by South Western Railway trains. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong though.
 

hkstudent

Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
526
Location
SE London
So, while I would be fairly confident the ticket would work the underground barriers at Charing Cross, I think it would be unlikely to work the main station barriers and I would be unlikely to be let through for the reason that Southeastern hasn't given ticket acceptance.

For the same reason, I don't think I can go via Farringdon, as Thameslink hasn't got ticket acceptance and I do see a lot of RPIs on Thameslink so can't risk it.

The Southwark routing seems fine and probably as good as any.
Not really. The Thameslink Core is counted as equivalent to London Underground for Cross London Transfer purposes. You can use your "cross" ticket on Thameslink service to London Bridge (as Cross London Journey), and then onward journey to Woolwich Arsenal (as the second leg of your journey to Woolwich Arsenal)
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#travelling_connect

They hold an advanced purchase ticket, which is for South Western Railway only. They would have to get to Charring Cross in order to start the second ticket and surely if there is underground acceptance, that wouldn't stretch to being allowed out at Charring Cross, when it isn't a station served by South Western Railway trains. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong though.
I did a quick check at NR journey planner, via Charing Cross by LU from Waterloo to Charing Cross (and even a double back from waterloo east to charing cross and back) is permitted, at the same price level for transfer via Waterloo East option.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/CBK/WWA/091219/1015/dep?via=London_Charing_Cross
 
Last edited:

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
9,712
Not really. The Thameslink Core is counted as equivalent to London Underground for Cross London Transfer purposes. You can use your "cross" ticket on Thameslink service to London Bridge (as Cross London Journey), and then onward journey to Woolwich Arsenal (as the second leg of your journey to Woolwich Arsenal)
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#travelling_connect


I did a quick check at NR journey planner, via Charing Cross by LU from Waterloo to Charing Cross (and even a double back from waterloo east to charing cross and back) is permitted, at the same price level for transfer via Waterloo East option.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/CBK/WWA/091219/1015/dep?via=London_Charing_Cross
That lists off peak tickets and not advances. Does the second ticket allow the use of the underground?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
22,718
As your ticket is for South Western Railway only and there is no acceptance on South Eastern Railway, according to staff, I would argue that South Eastern services cannot be used and that includes Charring Cross.
I suspect you've missed the earlier point about travelling into Paddington as has been allowed by ticket acceptance. So the OP is now safely on the underground heading from Paddington to Waterloo, and the real question is will he be allowed out of the underground early at Charing Cross. Getting from Waterloo to Charing Cross isn’t actually necessary...
 

maxbarnish

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2017
Messages
107
Not really. The Thameslink Core is counted as equivalent to London Underground for Cross London Transfer purposes. You can use your "cross" ticket on Thameslink service to London Bridge (as Cross London Journey), and then onward journey to Woolwich Arsenal (as the second leg of your journey to Woolwich Arsenal)
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#travelling_connect


I did a quick check at NR journey planner, via Charing Cross by LU from Waterloo to Charing Cross (and even a double back from waterloo east to charing cross and back) is permitted, at the same price level for transfer via Waterloo East option.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/CBK/WWA/091219/1015/dep?via=London_Charing_Cross

Good point especially re Thameslink Core. I have options - it'll be fine
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
9,712
I suspect you've missed the earlier point about travelling into Paddington as has been allowed by ticket acceptance. So the OP is now safely on the underground heading from Paddington to Waterloo, and the real question is will he be allowed out of the underground early at Charing Cross. Getting from Waterloo to Charing Cross isn’t actually necessary...
That was my point. Would ylthey be allowed out early on their ticket at Charing Cross

Other people seemed to think they could as it's probably a Cranbrook to London Terminal ticket. However they hold a South Western Railway only ticket and ticket acceptance is on the underground and Great Western Railway only.

As you say, it would be up to Underground staff as to whether they would let them alight early.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
22,718
That was my point. Would ylthey be allowed out early on their ticket at Charing Cross

Other people seemed to think they could as it's probably a Cranbrook to London Terminal ticket. However they hold a South Western Railway only ticket and ticket acceptance is on the underground and Great Western Railway only.

As you say, it would be up to Underground staff as to whether they would let them alight early.
Because when they get to the LU barrier line at Charing Cross the Maltese cross coding on the advance ticket (see BR fares) is going to automatically allow them out without underground staff ever being involved, just like at any other LU/NR interchange station, of which there are dozens. LU barriers do not apply any routeing checks.

However you could probably ask the question why such an SWR + connections ticket actually needs a Maltese cross, but that’s probably for a separate discussion...
 
Last edited:

Top