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Routing question

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TurbostarFan

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Is it automatically the case that tickets valid to travel via a particular station will automatically be valid on any permitted route between that station and the destination? An example is a Wymondham to London Terminals (via Cambridge) ticket. Permitted routes from Wymondham to Cambridge include using a direct train, going to Norwich and getting a train from there to Ely and changing onto another train there and going to Norwich and changing onto another train at Ipswich or Stowmarket which can be done either by a direct train or by changing at Ely.
 
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bb21

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No, the routeing guide is not recursive. If you have a ticket from Wymondham to London, permitted routes between Wymondham and London apply.

Permitted routes between Wymondham and Cambridge, and that between Cambridge and London is irrelevant, whether Wymondham to London is valid via Cambridge or not (except in the case of a very small number of routed fares but none apply in your case).
 

TurbostarFan

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No, the routeing guide is not recursive. If you have a ticket from Wymondham to London, permitted routes between Wymondham and London apply.

Permitted routes between Wymondham and Cambridge, and that between Cambridge and London is irrelevant, whether Wymondham to London is valid via Cambridge or not (except in the case of a very small number of routed fares but none apply in your case).
How do you know if it is one of the very small number of routed fares?
 

bb21

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You ask here on a case by case basis, or study the routeing guide in great detail.
 

bb21

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None in Anglia that I am aware of.
 

TurbostarFan

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For your information I've read conflicting information elsewhere here which states the opposite to what you said. Can you clarify where it says that please?
 

MikeWh

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For your information I've read conflicting information elsewhere here which states the opposite to what you said. Can you clarify where it says that please?
Can you post a link to the conflicting information so we can clarify with respect to the specific scenario you are talking about.
 

yorkie

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I believe question is:

Is a Wymondham to London ticket (routed: "via Cambridge") valid by all permitted routes from Wymondham to Cambridge, and by all permitted routes from Cambridge to London?

If so, the answer is yes, it is, because it is specifically routed via Cambridge (the Routeing Guide is not recursive, so if the route was Any Permitted then it wouldn't necessarily be the case; you'd have to check)

You could go via Norwich but don't try exiting there, and you must get a train that does not call again at Wymondham.

I strongly advise obtaining an itinerary and sticking to it.

Remember that the Routeing Guide is intended for journey planners; if in doubt as to whether a ticket is valid or not, ensure that you purchase a ticket online in conjunction with an itinerary.

If you just turn up expecting to use a ticket not in accordance with how the staff think it should be used, and have no itinerary to follow, you could end up in a dispute. Note that any such dispute can result in changes that have negative consequences for you and other passengers, such as adding additional restrictions to the route and/or negative easements.
 

Haywain

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Permitted routes from Wymondham to Cambridge include ... going to Norwich and getting a train from there to Ely and changing onto another train there and going to Norwich and changing onto another train at Ipswich or Stowmarket which can be done either by a direct train or by changing at Ely.
I'm hoping this statement is an error of punctuation and referring to two separate options rather than suggesting that shuttling back and forth between Norwich and Ely would be acceptable.
 

bb21

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If so, the answer is yes, it is, because it is specifically routed via Cambridge (the Routeing Guide is not recursive, so if the route was Any Permitted then it wouldn't necessarily be the case; you'd have to check)
Isn't that only the case (ie. recursiveness) when no permitted routes exist via Cambridge, because that was the previous consensus on the subject?
 

yorkie

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Isn't that only the case (ie. recursiveness) when no permitted routes exist via Cambridge, because that was the previous consensus on the subject?
The electronic routeing rules state that if the route isn't validated from origin to destination, then you do the split route check.

A good example of this might be London Terminals to Chinley route: Via Manchester.

There is no through permitted route from London [Paddington] to Chinley via Reading, Birmingham & Manchester.

So journey planners will do the split route check, and determine that it is permitted for this ticket, because London Terminals to Manchester is valid via Reading & Birmingham.

I'm hoping this statement is an error of punctuation and referring to two separate options rather than suggesting that shuttling back and forth between Norwich and Ely would be acceptable.
I have no idea what the final sentence means either, I just answered the other bits!

I do advise extreme caution where anyone does not fully understand what they are doing: the rules are complex because they are designed for journey planners to implement the rules in order to provide valid travel itineraries.

My advice to @MPotter is to put his requirements into a booking site, book the ticket online, and follow the itinerary.
 

TurbostarFan

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I'm hoping this statement is an error of punctuation and referring to two separate options rather than suggesting that shuttling back and forth between Norwich and Ely would be acceptable.
My bad, I think I'll clarify what I meant was the following:

Permitted routes from Wymondham to Cambridge include the following options: 1) using a direct train 2) going to Norwich and getting a train from there to Ely and changing onto another train there 3) going to Norwich and changing onto another train at Ipswich or Stowmarket and then going to Cambridge by either a: direct train or by changing at Ely.
 

TurbostarFan

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I believe question is:

Is a Wymondham to London ticket (routed: "via Cambridge") valid by all permitted routes from Wymondham to Cambridge, and by all permitted routes from Cambridge to London?

If so, the answer is yes, it is, because it is specifically routed via Cambridge (the Routeing Guide is not recursive, so if the route was Any Permitted then it wouldn't necessarily be the case; you'd have to check)

You could go via Norwich but don't try exiting there, and you must get a train that does not call again at Wymondham.

I strongly advise obtaining an itinerary and sticking to it.

Remember that the Routeing Guide is intended for journey planners; if in doubt as to whether a ticket is valid or not, ensure that you purchase a ticket online in conjunction with an itinerary.

If you just turn up expecting to use a ticket not in accordance with how the staff think it should be used, and have no itinerary to follow, you could end up in a dispute. Note that any such dispute can result in changes that have negative consequences for you and other passengers, such as adding additional restrictions to the route and/or negative easements.
Thanks for your advice but I would like to ask why it is that I can't try exiting at Norwich? What happens if I need to go through the gateline to use the station facilities e.g. toilets or shops without exiting the station?

The electronic routeing rules state that if the route isn't validated from origin to destination, then you do the split route check.

A good example of this might be London Terminals to Chinley route: Via Manchester.

There is no through permitted route from London [Paddington] to Chinley via Reading, Birmingham & Manchester.

So journey planners will do the split route check, and determine that it is permitted for this ticket, because London Terminals to Manchester is valid via Reading & Birmingham.


I have no idea what the final sentence means either, I just answered the other bits!

I do advise extreme caution where anyone does not fully understand what they are doing: the rules are complex because they are designed for journey planners to implement the rules in order to provide valid travel itineraries.

My advice to @MPotter is to put his requirements into a booking site, book the ticket online, and follow the itinerary.
Thanks for your advice yorkie.
 

yorkie

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Thanks for your advice but I would like to ask why it is that I can't try exiting at Norwich? What happens if I need to go through the gateline to use the station facilities e.g. toilets or shops without exiting the station?
Why do you want to travel via Norwich?
What itinerary do you have in mind?
Will you be buying online?
 

TurbostarFan

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Ah, to get into a dispute. I see.
Then the via Norwich fare is the appropriate fare for your journey, not via Cambridge.

If you're not prepared to take our advise, we can choose not to provide it.
1) I suppose you could call it that.
2) Yes of course it is. But if I want to do one way via Cambridge and another way via Norwich then I would rather go for the cheapest possible option, buy the via Cambridge ticket and excess one way to be valid via Norwich.
3) Alright. How about I take your advice and buy the ticket online. Sorry.
 

yorkie

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1) I suppose you could call it that.
I'm all for genuine mystery shopping but this doesn't sit well with me.
2) Yes of course it is. But if I want to do one way via Cambridge and another way via Norwich then I would rather go for the cheapest possible option, buy the via Cambridge ticket and excess one way to be valid via Norwich.
But this doesn't tally with what you said earlier.
3) Alright. How about I take your advice and buy the ticket online. Sorry.
If you want to use a ticket by a route that may be contentious, my strong advice is to obtain an itinerary from a website when you purchase the ticket and travel in accordance with that itinerary.

To see if a ticket is valid by the route you want to take, you are advised to a search on a website of your choice and see if you can get an itinerary for that route. If you can, then do it (as even if the website made a mistake and gave an itinerary for an invalid route, it's still a valid itinerary contractually) and if you can't, don't.

I advise against deliberately breaking your journey at contentious stations en route to provoke a reaction from staff; it's not likely to result in a good outcome for you, or for the staff, or for any other customer, if things escalate.
 

TurbostarFan

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I'm all for genuine mystery shopping but this doesn't sit well with me.
But this doesn't tally with what you said earlier.

If you want to use a ticket by a route that may be contentious, my strong advice is to obtain an itinerary from a website when you purchase the ticket and travel in accordance with that itinerary.

To see if a ticket is valid by the route you want to take, you are advised to a search on a website of your choice and see if you can get an itinerary for that route. If you can, then do it (as even if the website made a mistake and gave an itinerary for an invalid route, it's still a valid itinerary contractually) and if you can't, don't.

I advise against deliberately breaking your journey at contentious stations en route to provoke a reaction from staff; it's not likely to result in a good outcome for you, or for the staff, or for any other customer, if things escalate.
I take the point, I didn't add that I wanted to do the following on the way back: London Terminals - Cambridge / Ely - Wymondham.

Thanks will take that advice.

Yes I take the point but what if I have a genuine reason to go through the gateline (but not break my journey per se) for example to use the toilets or other station facilities?
 

FenMan

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I take the point, I didn't add that I wanted to do the following on the way back: London Terminals - Cambridge / Ely - Wymondham.

Thanks will take that advice.

Yes I take the point but what if I have a genuine reason to go through the gateline (but not break my journey per se) for example to use the toilets or other station facilities?

"Just popping out for a smoke" has never failed in my experience.
 

yorkie

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"Just popping out for a smoke" has never failed in my experience.
At a station which is a via point for a flow from the ticket origin to the ticket destination, which is priced at a higher fare* than the ticket you hold?

At places like Leeds, where they barely glance at the ticket, maybe!

But would would this work at a station where you were well known and were the subject of a banning order?

I doubt your experiences are very compatible with the likely experience in this case somehow ;)

(* I'm not saying the fare isn't valid at that location - it is - but this exercise is clearly designed to get into a situation where conflict occurs)
 

mmh

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Remember that the Routeing Guide is intended for journey planners

My eyebrow has just raised so much I'm expecting a call from Roger Moore's people any moment!
 

TurbostarFan

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At a station which is a via point for a flow from the ticket origin to the ticket destination, which is priced at a higher fare* than the ticket you hold?

At places like Leeds, where they barely glance at the ticket, maybe!

But would would this work at a station where you were well known and were the subject of a banning order?

I doubt your experiences are very compatible with the likely experience in this case somehow ;)

(* I'm not saying the fare isn't valid at that location - it is - but this exercise is clearly designed to get into a situation where conflict occurs)
With all due respect tickets from Norwich to London Terminals are now cheaper than tickets from Wymondham to London Terminals (via Norwich). As long as I'm travelling on the next available service, I'll be OK to be at the station. Failing that I could always leave the station and come back to catch another train, although I wouldn't do that in practice.
 

yorkie

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With all due respect tickets from Norwich to London Terminals are now cheaper than tickets from Wymondham to London Terminals (via Norwich).
How is the price of Norwich to London relevant to the validity of Wymondham to London in relation to the topic under discussion?

As long as I'm travelling on the next available service, I'll be OK to be at the station. Failing that I could always leave the station and come back to catch another train, although I wouldn't do that in practice.
I'm really unsure exactly what journey you are talking about making now, so it's very difficult to give any meaningful advice.
 

TurbostarFan

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How is the price of Norwich to London relevant to the validity of Wymondham to London in relation to the topic under discussion?


I'm really unsure exactly what journey you are talking about making now, so it's very difficult to give any meaningful advice.
I was trying to answer this question:

yorkie said:
At a station which is a via point for a flow from the ticket origin to the ticket destination, which is priced at a higher fare* than the ticket you hold?
 

yorkie

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Again, you misunderstand.

Wymondham - London via Cambridge SVR £46.80
Wymondham - London via Norwich SVR £58.80

Also, even if you thought you should be comparing the ticket you hold to the fare from Norwich, you'd still be incorrect, as the SVR from Norwich to London is £56.70

It's really difficult to follow what you are trying to do; there have been numerous misunderstandings in this thread.

It's also clear that you make many mistakes in understanding the validity of tickets, so if you want to do something unusual in future I would strongly recommend you don't do it unless you can obtain an itinerary from a booking site, and if you can obtain such an itinerary as part of your booking confirmation, you stick to it and show the evidence of a contract in the event of a dispute, rather than get into an argument that isn't going to go well.

It's evident that you are unpopular at Norwich station and I advise against doing anything that could escalate matters. I think there is a real risk that you will end up embroiled in a dispute that will have negative consequences for yourself, the staff, and for passenger rights. From your posts, it looks like you are looking to engineer a pointless dispute, and that is not something we are interested in encouraging.
 
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TurbostarFan

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Again, you misunderstand.

Wymondham - London via Cambridge SVR £46.80
Wymondham - London via Norwich SVR £58.80

Also, even if you thought you should be comparing the ticket you hold to the fare from Norwich, you'd still be incorrect, as the SVR from Norwich to London is £56.70

It's really difficult to follow what you are trying to do; there have been numerous misunderstandings in this thread.

It's also clear that you make many mistakes in understanding the validity of tickets, so if you want to do something unusual in future I would strongly recommend you don't do it unless you can obtain an itinerary from a booking site, and if you can obtain such an itinerary as part of your booking confirmation, you stick to it and show the evidence of a contract in the event of a dispute, rather than get into an argument that isn't going to go well.

It's evident that you are unpopular at Norwich station and I advise against doing anything that could escalate matters. I think there is a real risk that you will end up embroiled in a dispute that will have negative consequences for yourself, the staff, and for passenger rights. From your posts, it looks like you are looking to engineer a pointless dispute, and that is not something we are interested in encouraging.
I misunderstood I though you were comparing the Wymondham to London Terminals via Norwich fare to the Norwich to London Terminals one. Now I see what you were trying to say, I will follow your advice going forward.
 
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