Rovers and Rangers not available through Ticket On Departure (TOD)

[yorkie]

It's been mentioned in passing a few times, but I don't think we have had a dedicated thread on this subject.

• Does anyone know why Rovers and Rangers are not available through TOD?
  
• Does anyone know how much work would be involved in enabling Rovers and Rangers for TOD?
• Does anyone know of any exceptions to this (e.g. I recall the old Southern franchise enabling their own TVMs for Southern Daysaves through TOD; anyone purchasing online had to agree to collect from a Southern TVM, I recall)

This is intended to be a technical discussion for anyone who has any insight into any of the above, as I am aware there are retailers who would like to be able to sell these products.

 

[CyrusWuff]

In the case of "Flexi" Rovers, I suspect it's most likely to be due to the need to print a separate coupon with the date boxes on, with that coupon stating "VALID ONLY WITH RAIL ROVER nnnnn". Obviously the ticket number in question won't be known until the time of issue and I suspect most (if not all) TVMs don't have the coding to feed it back to the print routine.

I would have thought that Day Rangers and Consecutive Rovers would be fairly easy to issue by ToD, given they're a standard layout, but I suspect the sticking point is one of who's going to pay for it. The TVM suppliers will likely have to pay Rail Settlement Plan to accredit the updated software, and there's no guarantee that TOCs will want to pay to have the option enabled on their TVM fleets.

 

[yorkie]

Yes I think money is the sticking point.

Ticket number should be no issue; old format Advance tickets (and even some tickets in new format e.g. the LNER "flat fare" singles) print a separate mandatory reservation coupon which stipulates "only valid with ticket number xxxxx"

 

[Muzer]

The rumour I always heard is that the S&B machines could only handle singles and returns, and so would issue them as singles. This is certainly the experience I've had with the few rovers you *can* buy through ToD (eg the aforementioned Southern Daysave).

 

[yorkie]

The rumour I always heard is that the S&B machines could only handle singles and returns, and so would issue them as such.

They would have had to fix that for Travelcards, so that can't remain being a valid excuse!

(and yes I do recall some reports in the past of Travelcards incorrectly printing as singles)

 

[Muzer]

That's true - but Travelcards are different again from rangers/rovers in format. Could be they fixed travelcards because of their importance but never bothered with rangers/rovers.

 

[cactustwirly]

That's true - but Travelcards are different again from rangers/rovers in format. Could be they fixed travelcards because of their importance but never bothered with rangers/rovers.

Because travelcards are a lot more popular than Rovers/Rangers!
From one of my local stations, a travelcard is one of the most popular tickets!

 

[mmh]

In the case of "Flexi" Rovers, I suspect it's most likely to be due to the need to print a separate coupon with the date boxes on, with that coupon stating "VALID ONLY WITH RAIL ROVER nnnnn". Obviously the ticket number in question won't be known until the time of issue and I suspect most (if not all) TVMs don't have the coding to feed it back to the print routine.

Advance tickets with compulsory seat reservations used to be printed like that (perhaps some machines still do, it's been a while since I've not had the less clear new style tickets), with a ticket coupon and a reservation coupon referring to each other's number.

 

[tomsy47]

Certainly Southern DaySaves can be collected TOD, as I collected one in this manner only last weekend.

 

[Muzer]

Certainly Southern DaySaves can be collected TOD, as I collected one in this manner only last weekend.

But they usually end up printing as singles or returns, rather than as rovers, right? They're actually in the system as both rovers and returns - I expect the latter is a hack to get ToD to work properly.

 

[tomsy47]

If I recall, it did say something like ‘from Victoria’ to ‘any southern station’ or something like that. It had the validity date in the centre of the ticket (like a travel card / season) and even had the LU roundel in the corner.

 

[Starmill]

Anyone know if a Merseyrail TVM [S&B] could issue an All Area Saveaway on paper (until they switched the product to smartcard)? I know they could issue northwirrallines tickets, but those are actually singles. @Merseysider ?
Can the Transport for Wales TVMs at Chester issue All Area Saveaways, or only northwirrlalines tickets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone know if a Merseyrail TVM could issue an All Area Saveaway on paper (until they switched the product to smartcard)? I know they could issue Northwirrallines tickets, but those are actually singles. @Merseysider ?

No, they couldn't. The whole reason those "Rovers" are issued as singles is so the TVMs can do them.

 

[alistairlees]

It's been mentioned in passing a few times, but I don't think we have had a dedicated thread on this subject.

• Does anyone know why Rovers and Rangers are not available through TOD?
  
• Does anyone know how much work would be involved in enabling Rovers and Rangers for TOD?
• Does anyone know of any exceptions to this (e.g. I recall the old Southern franchise enabling their own TVMs for Southern Daysaves through TOD; anyone purchasing online had to agree to collect from a Southern TVM, I recall)

This is intended to be a technical discussion for anyone who has any insight into any of the above, as I am aware there are retailers who would like to be able to sell these products.

Although it might look live a rover / ranger, Southern DaySave is not one in data terms. It is not in the rovers data. It is in the normal fares data. See http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=BTN&dest=QAS (note the strange CRS code!).

I expect this is so it can be collected via ToD.

 

[yorkie]

Has it changed over the years?

I definitely remember DaySaves could only be collected through Southern TVMs only under the old franchise (ie. long before GTR took over).

Edit: I found this with an old photo from 2014 http://www.railrover.org/pages/southern-daysave.html

The tickets can only be purchased online from Southern's website

in advance at least five days if having them sent by post or three days when using "Ticket On Departure" and can be collected from any Southern ticket vending machine.

The format of the ticket shown (dating from 2014) appears to be in the same format as a Travelcard.

There shouldn't really be any material difference between the concept of a Day Travelcard and a Day Ranger, or a Travelcard Season and a Rover, I wouldn't have thought.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I know for certain that our TVMs won’t handle that ticket format as we are currently expanding the formats that they can handle but haven’t included rovers as there’s no justification.

 

[_toommm_]

Advance tickets with compulsory seat reservations used to be printed like that (perhaps some machines still do, it's been a while since I've not had the less clear new style tickets), with a ticket coupon and a reservation coupon referring to each other's number.

Virgin Trains machines still issue a separate reservation slip.

 

[Haywain]

The biggest issue with selling Rovers and Rangers through ToD is actually one of selling online generally, in that most web sales outlets insist on generating a journey plan to enable a ticket to be purchased. For a Rover or Ranger, which doesn't have an origin or destination, it is impossible to sell in that way. The only way of then selling them is to provide an alternative method and the cost of developing such a method would likely be seen as prohibitive for the small returns offered by such tickets, which generally sell in very small numbers compared to other tickets.

 

[Muzer]

Although it might look live a rover / ranger, Southern DaySave is not one in data terms. It is not in the rovers data. It is in the normal fares data. See http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=BTN&dest=QAS (note the strange CRS code!).

I expect this is so it can be collected via ToD.

As I mentioned above, it's actually both.

 

[Hadders]

I seem to remember the then Southern Pricing Manager saying on here that Daysaves had to be manually inserted into the ToD system which was why there was a 3 day lead time for on-line purchases.

 

[APT618S]

The GWR website seems to allow the purchase of various rovers in their area including 3 in 7 & 8 in 15 rovers although I have never used it:
See:
http://tickets.gwr.com/gw/en/journeyplanning/roversandrangers
However just because they can be ordered online does not mean they can be picked up ToD as I know the last time I used the sleeper (admittedly about 4 years ago) the sleeper supplement ticket despite having the 8 alpha numeric collection code would not allow ToD collection but had to be collected from the ticket office.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The biggest issue with selling Rovers and Rangers through ToD is actually one of selling online generally, in that most web sales outlets insist on generating a journey plan to enable a ticket to be purchased. For a Rover or Ranger, which doesn't have an origin or destination, it is impossible to sell in that way. The only way of then selling them is to provide an alternative method and the cost of developing such a method would likely be seen as prohibitive for the small returns offered by such tickets, which generally sell in very small numbers compared to other tickets.

They can be purchased online http://tickets.gwr.com/gw/en/journeyplanning/roversandrangers

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The GWR website seems to allow the purchase of various rovers in their area including 3 in 7 & 8 in 15 rovers although I have never used it:
See:
http://tickets.gwr.com/gw/en/journeyplanning/roversandrangers
However just because they can be ordered online does not mean they can be picked up ToD as I know the last time I used the sleeper (admittedly about 4 years ago) the sleeper supplement ticket despite having the 8 alpha numeric collection code would not allow ToD collection but had to be collected from the ticket office.

Indeed; the tickets do have a ToD-style code, but they cannot be collected anywhere - they must be posted to you.

 

[Haywain]

They can be purchased online http://tickets.gwr.com/gw/en/journeyplanning/roversandrangers

Thanks. You will note that I said most web sales outlets.

 

[Flying Snail]

I know for certain that our TVMs won’t handle that ticket format as we are currently expanding the formats that they can handle but haven’t included rovers as there’s no justification.

Eh? There's no justification? How about they are valid tickets that intending passengers should not be prevented from purchasing.

such tickets, which generally sell in very small numbers compared to other tickets.

Tickets which are not publicised, do not appear on journey planners and have a restricted availability for purchase are not popular, why on earth would that be?

Only the effing railways would turn the printing of a ticket from a box whose only purpose is to print tickets into an edge case that is too difficult to achieve.

The same railways that have closed travel centres, reduced staffing levels in offices, replaced proper issuing terminals with ipads and rows of TVMs, who are pushing passengers away from ticket office sales and will no doubt be looking at TfL's mass ticket office closures as something to emulate as soon as they can get away with it.

 

[Sleepy]

Sleeper tickets can be issued via TVM - come to that I've managed to get them from guards star mobile !!

 

[Intermodal]

Sleeper tickets can be issued via TVM - come to that I've managed to get them from guards star mobile !!

STAR Mobile can sell the full range of rovers/rangers.

 

[Muzer]

Eh? There's no justification? How about they are valid tickets that intending passengers should not be prevented from purchasing.

It's OK, just ignore him, this person hates the idea of passengers buying perfectly valid tickets that don't conform to his own worldview on how railway tickets should work.

Meanwhile London Overground managed to produce very comprehensive TVMs which can sell rovers and rangers (walk-up only AFAIK) among plenty of other things. If London Overground can produce TVMs that have more clue about the ticketing system than their own (former) ticket office staff tended to do, what on earth is the excuse for other TOCs?

 

[theblackwatch]

I know for certain that our TVMs won’t handle that ticket format as we are currently expanding the formats that they can handle but haven’t included rovers as there’s no justification.

Out of interest, why do you consider there is no justification? Is it a belief that nobody would wish to purchase such a ticket from a TVM? Or a commercial justification, or some other reason?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Out of interest, why do you consider there is no justification? Is it a belief that nobody would wish to purchase such a ticket from a TVM? Or a commercial justification, or some other reason?

I suspect it's a simple cost-benefit justification. LNER won't get a great deal of revenue from rangers and rovers - and thus they won't think the cost of developing a mode for their TVMs where they don't give an itinerary with the sale of the ticket simply won't ever be covered by the ticket sales' commission and revenue.