Row over female-only compartments being used by transgender people on Caledonian sleeper service

[pompeyfan]

Isn’t this approach due to the fact some people now identify as ‘non-binary’ and as ‘gender fluid’?

Those two terms are going to take a while for people to get their heads around, especially the gender fluid part, in which just a few decades ago people would likely have been sectioned under a mental health ruling. Even a colleague who’s is gay and very camp openly disagreed with gender fluidity, which is a surprise as a layman would assume they’d all be flying the same flag for equal rights of the LGBTQ+ movements.

 

[AlterEgo]

Mumsnet is good at that. I really wouldn't want the vast majority of its inhabitants to mother my child...

Mumsnet is a complete toilet, I agree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

which is a surprise as a layman would assume they’d all be flying the same flag for equal rights of the LGBTQ+ movements.

It might be surprising, but sadly not. In particular there is quite a lot of biphobia in the gay community. A lot of gay blokes seem to think that people being bi is because they refuse to accept they are gay. Whereas I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that sexuality is in fact somewhat of a continuum, with more people being bi in some form than is immediately apparent (particularly as some bi people will choose only to have straight or indeed gay relationships, in which case nobody will ever be the wiser).

 

[EM2]

Middle aged fat perverts pretending to be women so they can gain access to female toilets, with the hope of sexual interaction.

Is there any evidence at all that this has happened? Bear in mind that I know four transgender people, two that have transitioned from male to female and two from female to male, and not one of them has ever had this happen.
However, they have ALL been assaulted by cis people for being in the 'wrong' space'.

 

[theageofthetra]

It might be surprising, but sadly not. In particular there is quite a lot of biphobia in the gay community. A lot of gay blokes seem to think that people being bi is because they refuse to accept they are gay. Whereas I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that sexuality is in fact somewhat of a continuum, with more people being bi in some form than is immediately apparent (particularly as some bi people will choose only to have straight or indeed gay relationships, in which case nobody will ever be the wiser).

True. My Mrs has literally hundreds of gay male friends from her time in the theatrical world and the vast majority hate & I mean REALLY hate lesbians, bi/trans and the sort who go on pride marches in pretty much that order.

 

[EM2]

Yes. Know a guy who works in venue security and it's increasingly common. They have found hidden cameras installed in venue toilets by these perverts too.

And there have been prosecutions for this?

By far the biggest issue is them being installed in those 'gender neutral' toilets which many places are putting in.

The same gender-neutral toilets that are on trains, on aeroplanes, in hotel rooms and I daresay your own house.

 

[LowLevel]

It might be surprising, but sadly not. In particular there is quite a lot of biphobia in the gay community. A lot of gay blokes seem to think that people being bi is because they refuse to accept they are gay. Whereas I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that sexuality is in fact somewhat of a continuum, with more people being bi in some form than is immediately apparent (particularly as some bi people will choose only to have straight or indeed gay relationships, in which case nobody will ever be the wiser).

We all have our prejudices - what is daft is to deny them - being honest about them and trying to work through them is the way forward - being in denial or alternatively being 'right on' about things you're not comfortable about just leads to issues related to suppression. The prejudice is as legitimate a feature of the person holding it as, for example, the position of a trans person. It's how you deal with them that counts.

As for sharing intimate spaces - I get why people may feel awkward on both sides of the coin. I'm not sure we as a society have progressed enough to handle it yet and whether forcing the issue is what is needed, or alternatively going to make the problem worse.

I think the way forward is that consenting strangers if they choose to share take the warts and all approach. This includes potentially sharing with trans people of their own gender. If they aren't comfortable, they don't take it up.

 

[theageofthetra]

And there have been prosecutions for this?

The same gender-neutral toilets that are on trains, on aeroplanes, in hotel rooms and I daresay your own house.

Idiotic comment. How often do you allow strangers in your own toilet & how do they get the micro SD card out of one left on a train/plane.

Hotel room toilets are a problem though- massive issue in India in particular with them being installed and images sold by poorly paid hotel staff in on it. Yes there have been prosecutions there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the way forward is that consenting strangers if they choose to share take the warts and all approach. This includes potentially sharing with trans people of their own gender. If they aren't comfortable, they don't take it up.

It would probably make more sense to follow the line of European couchettes and not have male/female compartments but instead make strong suggestions that when sharing one does not undress to sleep.

Or just don't allow sharing with strangers. You can't in a hotel unless you make the arrangement yourself. Though that may cause capacity issues as they haven't designed for that, e.g. by way of single compartments with the beds alternating high and low which would only "waste" the narrow "aisle".

Idiotic comment. How often do you allow strangers in your own toilet & how do they get the micro SD card out of one left on a train/plane.

Er, put it in at the start of the journey and remove it at the end?

 

[EM2]

Idiotic comment. How often do you allow strangers in your own toilet & how do they get the micro SD card out of one left on a train/plane.

And you would let a stranger into the cubicle that you're using in a nightclub, stadium or office?

Hotel room toilets are a problem though- massive issue in India in particular with them being installed and images sold by poorly paid hotel staff in on it. Yes there have been prosecutions there.

But as far as I'm aware, the Caledonian Sleeper doesn't run in India. Does your acquaintance who works in security work in India too?
I don't deny that unscrupulous people install covert cameras in toilets, but where is the evidence that this is done by people 'pretending' to be another gender, especially in the UK?

 

[Wombat]

My understanding is that the main concern is not around trans people behaving inappropriately, but rather non-trans men pretending to identify as women purely to get access to women.

I think it's a reasonable concern. There's no requirement for a self-identifying trans woman to "act like a woman" (and good luck defining that), so I could turn up in my typical men's clothing and a beard to share a compartment with your mother or daughter purely on the declaration that I self-identify as a woman. And I expect that the large majority of people making that declaration will be genuine and harmless, but we know that there are violent people out there which is why segregated accommodation was provided in the first place.

In my view the requirements for getting a gender recognition certificate are overly burdensome at the moment, but self-ID in scenarios such as this one are a step too far for me.

 

[AlterEgo]

And there have been prosecutions for this?

If prosecutions aren’t forthcoming does this mean by default the offences don’t happen?

 

[Marklund]

If there is one website that needs to be consigned to Room 101 it's Mumsnet. The home of paranoia and all possible forms of negative parenting.

Agreed

...Thread Closed.

Mumsnet is good at that. I really wouldn't want the vast majority of its inhabitants to mother my child...

Lots of Mumsnet experts here. How much time have you been browsing to form these expert opinions, or is it just supposition?

And why are you browsing Mumsnet anyway...

 

[randyrippley]

Lots of Mumsnet experts here. How much time have you been browsing to form these expert opinions, or is it just supposition?

And why are you browsing Mumsnet anyway...

To see what Mumsnet are saying this week about the blokes who use UKPunting??? (no....don't go there, very very NSFW)

 

[randyrippley]

Is there any evidence at all that this has happened? Bear in mind that I know four transgender people, two that have transitioned from male to female and two from female to male, and not one of them has ever had this happen.
However, they have ALL been assaulted by cis people for being in the 'wrong' space'.

From personal knowledge of such people, yes. Otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of Mumsnet experts here. How much time have you been browsing to form these expert opinions, or is it just supposition?

And why are you browsing Mumsnet anyway...

When it comes up in the news I go and have a read of the threads to form my opinions based on what is there rather than Press opinion. I see no issue with that.

 

[EM2]

If prosecutions aren’t forthcoming does this mean by default the offences don’t happen?

No, but it would be very unusual for an offence that apparently has taken place numerous times to never be prosecuted.
Will expand more later, on the phone just now.

 

[whhistle]

Caledonian Sleeper won't be able to settle this and make everyone happy.

It's not particularly their place to either.

We as society want to accept transgender people so the answer is simple: if you identify as being female, you're allowed in the women only berths, no matter what is physically between your legs.

I must set that reminder to change my gender later in life so I can claim my pension earlier (IE, women can claim their pensions earlier than men).

 

[pemma]

I must set that reminder to change my gender later in life so I can claim my pension earlier (IE, women can claim their pensions earlier than men).

That depends when you were born, for younger people it'll make no difference. I seem to recall hearing that Canada is the only country in the world which has made it policy that both men and women get state pensions at 65, most countries still have male/female differences and for those who are removing them or who have removed them they've pushed the pension age up to something like 67/68

 

[AlterEgo]

No, but it would be very unusual for an offence that apparently has taken place numerous times to never be prosecuted.
Will expand more later, on the phone just now.

I’m not saying the offences do happen, as I, like you, find the idea of a man dressing as a woman to plant a camera rather far fetched. I just don’t think that looking at prosecutions is a reliable test to evaluate whether a criminal offence occurs. You only need to look at how long it took for someone to be prosecuted for FGM.

 

[SPADTrap]

Lots of Mumsnet experts here. How much time have you been browsing to form these expert opinions, or is it just supposition?

And why are you browsing Mumsnet anyway...

Did you just assume their genders?

 

[AlterEgo]

Lots of Mumsnet experts here. How much time have you been browsing to form these expert opinions, or is it just supposition?

And why are you browsing Mumsnet anyway...

It’s in the news all the time. Whenever I read the thread about whatever started the news story off (I had no idea what ManFriday was until I saw this story), I come away with the impression that it’s full of mad harpies with too much time on their hands.

 

[Marklund]

Did you just assume their genders?

No...

 

[Marklund]

It’s in the news all the time. Whenever I read the thread about whatever started the news story off (I had no idea what ManFriday was until I saw this story), I come away with the impression that it’s full of mad harpies with too much time on their hands.

Here, or Mumsnet?

 

[AlterEgo]

Here, or Mumsnet?

Mumsnet - a harpy being a woman by definition.

 

[Marklund]

When it comes up in the news I go and have a read of the threads to form my opinions based on what is there rather than Press opinion. I see no issue with that.

So you're not an expert, and only read the sensationalist threads.
You can easily say that about ANY internet forum...

 

[Marklund]

Mumsnet - a harpy being a woman by definition.

And there aren't women here?

 

[AlterEgo]

And there aren't women here?

There are very, very few women on RailUK. Much less than 5% of the active membership.

Not sure what your point is anyway.

 

[Marklund]

The point was there was a lot of Mumsnet bashing, I wanted to know how they'd know it was as bad as it was.

And your comment about people with nothing better to do equally applies to almost every forum. See the hypocrisy?

 

[aar0]

the idea of a man dressing as a woman to plant a camera rather far fetched.

Why not just wear a cleaners outfit and save yourself the hassle of a close shave and makeup?