-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
RSSB - 'New in cab display shows route ahead'
- Thread starter SPADTrap
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Rich McLean
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Feb 2012
- Messages
- 1,704
It can be useful, but also another distraction. It also shouldn't replace the standard of route knowledge required
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
I feel it could be a distraction and incite laziness in the same way as a car driver could be looking at a satnav all the time instead of out of the windscreen at the road ahead.
As if drivers don't have enough to do. It should not replace established route knowledge in the same way as The Knowledge for black cabbies
As if drivers don't have enough to do. It should not replace established route knowledge in the same way as The Knowledge for black cabbies
Another distraction.
And another, albeit small, step closer to automation.
Hopeless waste of money
If I was a cynic, I'd suggest that's exactly what it's intended to do.
Some form of advanced 'Sat Nav' meaning that you can cut back the road knowledge requirements of drivers, then an on board system to advise how to sort out on-board defects (backed up with a 'Train Doctor' up in Control) meaning you can cut back on the stock knowledge requirements. I should imagine that the powers that be have been looking into things like this for years.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
And if I was a cynic, I would suggest you are right and if this was rolled out, there would be a driver's strike in a similar vein to the current Southern DOO issues with 12-car 387/2 working
But if the train developed a fault and could not continue its journey, then perhaps a real time "traction doctor" could be a good idea
But if the train developed a fault and could not continue its journey, then perhaps a real time "traction doctor" could be a good idea
And when the system decides it does not want to play ball and you get left with a driver without enough knowledge to continue then what happens?
It would be great to have a train in the middle of knowhere, full of passengers that can't go anywhere because the system has failed.
It would be great to have a train in the middle of knowhere, full of passengers that can't go anywhere because the system has failed.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Are people aware that DB have used such a system for literally tens of years? It's called the Buchfahrplan. These days it is electronic, but originally as the name implies it was a ring-bound book sitting in a holder on the driver's desk.
SNCF I believe also do something similar.
ISTR that if there's a failure the train can proceed but at 25km/h driving on sight, or something.
SNCF I believe also do something similar.
ISTR that if there's a failure the train can proceed but at 25km/h driving on sight, or something.
Given the supposed soon arrival of ETCS, this seems like a bit of a waste - although it does have the advantage of indicating which line is being taken, rather than just a speed. I suspect however that it is just going to be something else that NR need to install and maintain, for little benefit
Considering I'd love a full blown HUD. This gets my support.
The problem is not the information or the technology. It will be how its implemented.
I would like to read more information on it and digest it a little further before I pass any judgements. Distraction I would agree with but that can be resolved with how its implemented rather than the actual use of in cab route information. If anything it looks a little useless :/
The problem is not the information or the technology. It will be how its implemented.
I would like to read more information on it and digest it a little further before I pass any judgements. Distraction I would agree with but that can be resolved with how its implemented rather than the actual use of in cab route information. If anything it looks a little useless :/
trainmania100
Established Member
I have seen an iPad sort of thing in dB class 66es that are wired somewhere
cjmillsnun
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 3,272
A HUD would be a lot better IMO, at least you wouldn't have to look away from the road ahead.
theageofthetra
On Moderation
As others have said HUD is the only safe way imho ANYthing which takes a driver's eyes off the view ahead can't be good . I only ever use the voice part of Sat Nav as I think any sort of screen that takes your eyes off the road is a distraction.
Where this system could have use is as a verbal reminder of say ESR's (possibly removing the present warning system?) PSR reduction, next station etc. Don't aircraft have verbal warnings?
Where this system could have use is as a verbal reminder of say ESR's (possibly removing the present warning system?) PSR reduction, next station etc. Don't aircraft have verbal warnings?
pdeaves
Established Member
For those of us that are slow of thinking, what is HUD in this context, please?
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 32,715
Most probably 'Head Up Display' i.e. projected onto the inside of the screen, like on some aircraft.
coppercapped
Established Member
A similar concept was used by Denis Jenkinson who was navigating for Stirling Moss in the 1955 Mille Miglia, see http://www.foodman123.com/moss.htm . He used a roller map in a case with all the road information for 1000 miles on it.
The concept is not new - but the implementation might be.
Last edited:
D1009
Established Member
Is that what the Cambrian 158s have for the ERTMS?
No, they have a typical screen. This is a good example of what a HUD can look like (taken from pilots eye view)
The basics of route knowledge is where your braking and where you are. You can't simply remove this knowledge as it's a core to driving a train.
The more complicated stuff are signal numbers, minor level crossings, bridges, change of mileage and shunting around unusual locations or junction. Once you've learnt it, you do tend to let the lesser things slip over time so you can easily reference a map if you get stuck. iPads and tablets are spreading with maps, traction manuals, TAS, WONs and other notices so it's not anti-technology.
Some TOCs provide DAS which is similar to this system. Tells you the mileage, time, your stopping pattern and recommends a speed to save fuel. I believe one or two TOCs have deactivated it.
The more complicated stuff are signal numbers, minor level crossings, bridges, change of mileage and shunting around unusual locations or junction. Once you've learnt it, you do tend to let the lesser things slip over time so you can easily reference a map if you get stuck. iPads and tablets are spreading with maps, traction manuals, TAS, WONs and other notices so it's not anti-technology.
Some TOCs provide DAS which is similar to this system. Tells you the mileage, time, your stopping pattern and recommends a speed to save fuel. I believe one or two TOCs have deactivated it.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
There's also the issue of landmarks such as lineside buildings, trees, bridges, foot crossings etc...etc... that add to a driver's route knowledge.
Maybe, just maybe something like this could be activated in areas of poor visibility such as fog or heavy rain
Maybe, just maybe something like this could be activated in areas of poor visibility such as fog or heavy rain
Jamesb1974
Member
- Joined
- 20 Mar 2006
- Messages
- 596
Deleted
Last edited:
Surprised you think you'd still be sat there looking at it when this comes in!
It has its uses but those uses won't be for you and I.Generally I'm pro technology and I do see a future where it can sit side by side us up front. The issues I have are usually with how things get implemented. This seems like a distraction and so far I still can't see much of a purpose for it. Not as a cab tool anyway.
Potentially I can see a deviation applied in degraded working where you could, if fitted with DSS, take a route you don't sign. The usual speed caveats would apply.
The railway is very far behind technologically and that's a big shame because I see many uses where it can be a big benefit to our jobs.
BTW you should check their website and youtube channel. It will make you chuckle.
Potentially I can see a deviation applied in degraded working where you could, if fitted with DSS, take a route you don't sign. The usual speed caveats would apply.
The railway is very far behind technologically and that's a big shame because I see many uses where it can be a big benefit to our jobs.
BTW you should check their website and youtube channel. It will make you chuckle.
We already have technology to combat fail to calls, and if we relied on it, our fail to calls would go through the roof. It's a useful thing to have sometimes but no substitute for our own memory and route knowledge. Don't be so sure it's a cure all. As an example of this, telling me I've got a stop at Crewe when I've departed and I'm heading towards Chester, it isn't much use is it?
cjmillsnun
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 3,272
No, they have a typical screen. This is a good example of what a HUD can look like (taken from pilots eye view)
Which would be a bit extreme for railway needs.
Personally (as someone not in the industry) I'd like to see it fairly simple, so there is not too much in the view.
The reason I hold this view, is that the driver needs minimal information as too much is a distraction.
So using my limited railway knowledge I would like the speed of the train, AWS sunflower (until ETRMS), and perhaps a bi-coloured fault text - literally the word FAULT in either red or yellow (red for a stop now fault, yellow for something that would allow the train to continue (but to check the TMS at the next planned stop)- so for example a red fault could be oil pressure low, a yellow fault could be air conditioning not working.
Some additional information such as linespeed and a count down to a change of linespeed along with the upcoming linespeed could also be implemented, although IMO that's route knowledge and something the driver shouldn't need.
- Status