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RSSB - 'New in cab display shows route ahead'

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SPADTrap

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RSSB said:
In trial from June - new in cab display shows route ahead

04 May 2016

​A new real-time Driver Support System (DSS) has been developed by RDS International to help drivers learn and retain immense amounts of route knowledge information will begin a special trial in June. The project has been part funded by RSSB.

Train drivers have to apply the brakes well before they can see where to stop, so until now, they have needed to memorise every detail of the route in order to drive safely.

The new Driver Support System displays a rolling map, similar to a satellite navigation system used by car drivers, in order to help drivers pre-empt the route ahead. The map will be displayed on a tablet showing the location of key information including signals, junctions and speed restrictions, prioritised for the selected journey. The design team has worked closely with passenger and freight operators to achieve a layout which presents key information clearly, at a glance.

The system allows drivers to operate with confidence in less familiar situations, for example when a train has to be diverted off its planned route.
DSS is part funded by RSSB and developed by RDS, who are also supplying the enabling video train positioning technology. The project now moves into user evaluation trials, in partnership with First Group.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/industry-news/in-trial-from-june-new-in-cab-display-shows-route-ahead

What are your thoughts on this? What do we think this would/could mean for us a drivers?
 

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Rich McLean

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It can be useful, but also another distraction. It also shouldn't replace the standard of route knowledge required
 

Islineclear3_1

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I feel it could be a distraction and incite laziness in the same way as a car driver could be looking at a satnav all the time instead of out of the windscreen at the road ahead.

As if drivers don't have enough to do. It should not replace established route knowledge in the same way as The Knowledge for black cabbies
 

HLE

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What are your thoughts on this? What do we think this would/could mean for us a drivers?

Another distraction.

And another, albeit small, step closer to automation.

Hopeless waste of money
 

Mojo

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As if drivers don't have enough to do. It should not replace established route knowledge in the same way as The Knowledge for black cabbies

If I was a cynic, I'd suggest that's exactly what it's intended to do.

Some form of advanced 'Sat Nav' meaning that you can cut back the road knowledge requirements of drivers, then an on board system to advise how to sort out on-board defects (backed up with a 'Train Doctor' up in Control) meaning you can cut back on the stock knowledge requirements. I should imagine that the powers that be have been looking into things like this for years.
 

Islineclear3_1

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And if I was a cynic, I would suggest you are right and if this was rolled out, there would be a driver's strike in a similar vein to the current Southern DOO issues with 12-car 387/2 working

But if the train developed a fault and could not continue its journey, then perhaps a real time "traction doctor" could be a good idea
 

dgl

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And when the system decides it does not want to play ball and you get left with a driver without enough knowledge to continue then what happens?

It would be great to have a train in the middle of knowhere, full of passengers that can't go anywhere because the system has failed.
 

najaB

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Given that ETCS is coming with in-cab displays, it isn't a surprising development.
 

Bletchleyite

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Are people aware that DB have used such a system for literally tens of years? It's called the Buchfahrplan. These days it is electronic, but originally as the name implies it was a ring-bound book sitting in a holder on the driver's desk.

SNCF I believe also do something similar.

ISTR that if there's a failure the train can proceed but at 25km/h driving on sight, or something.
 

Domh245

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Given the supposed soon arrival of ETCS, this seems like a bit of a waste - although it does have the advantage of indicating which line is being taken, rather than just a speed. I suspect however that it is just going to be something else that NR need to install and maintain, for little benefit
 

DCT

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Might stop all the fail to calls and other incidents though..
 

ComUtoR

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Considering I'd love a full blown HUD. This gets my support.

The problem is not the information or the technology. It will be how its implemented.

I would like to read more information on it and digest it a little further before I pass any judgements. Distraction I would agree with but that can be resolved with how its implemented rather than the actual use of in cab route information. If anything it looks a little useless :/
 

cjmillsnun

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Considering I'd love a full blown HUD. This gets my support.

The problem is not the information or the technology. It will be how its implemented.

I would like to read more information on it and digest it a little further before I pass any judgements. Distraction I would agree with but that can be resolved with how its implemented rather than the actual use of in cab route information. If anything it looks a little useless :/

A HUD would be a lot better IMO, at least you wouldn't have to look away from the road ahead.
 

ComUtoR

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Might stop all the fail to calls and other incidents though..

How ?

From the display and the blurb its more about route indication rather than incident management or stopping patterns.
 

theageofthetra

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As others have said HUD is the only safe way imho ANYthing which takes a driver's eyes off the view ahead can't be good . I only ever use the voice part of Sat Nav as I think any sort of screen that takes your eyes off the road is a distraction.

Where this system could have use is as a verbal reminder of say ESR's (possibly removing the present warning system?) PSR reduction, next station etc. Don't aircraft have verbal warnings?
 

coppercapped

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Are people aware that DB have used such a system for literally tens of years? It's called the Buchfahrplan. These days it is electronic, but originally as the name implies it was a ring-bound book sitting in a holder on the driver's desk.

SNCF I believe also do something similar.

ISTR that if there's a failure the train can proceed but at 25km/h driving on sight, or something.

A similar concept was used by Denis Jenkinson who was navigating for Stirling Moss in the 1955 Mille Miglia, see http://www.foodman123.com/moss.htm . He used a roller map in a case with all the road information for 1000 miles on it.

The concept is not new - but the implementation might be.
 
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Domh245

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Is that what the Cambrian 158s have for the ERTMS?

No, they have a typical screen. This is a good example of what a HUD can look like (taken from pilots eye view)

a8c4c53917037176ed6a4e39aac527b9.jpg
 

FordFocus

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The basics of route knowledge is where your braking and where you are. You can't simply remove this knowledge as it's a core to driving a train.

The more complicated stuff are signal numbers, minor level crossings, bridges, change of mileage and shunting around unusual locations or junction. Once you've learnt it, you do tend to let the lesser things slip over time so you can easily reference a map if you get stuck. iPads and tablets are spreading with maps, traction manuals, TAS, WONs and other notices so it's not anti-technology.


Some TOCs provide DAS which is similar to this system. Tells you the mileage, time, your stopping pattern and recommends a speed to save fuel. I believe one or two TOCs have deactivated it.
 

Islineclear3_1

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There's also the issue of landmarks such as lineside buildings, trees, bridges, foot crossings etc...etc... that add to a driver's route knowledge.

Maybe, just maybe something like this could be activated in areas of poor visibility such as fog or heavy rain
 

SPADTrap

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Considering I'd love a full blown HUD. This gets my support.

The problem is not the information or the technology. It will be how its implemented.

I would like to read more information on it and digest it a little further before I pass any judgements. Distraction I would agree with but that can be resolved with how its implemented rather than the actual use of in cab route information. If anything it looks a little useless :/
Surprised you think you'd still be sat there looking at it when this comes in! :| It has its uses but those uses won't be for you and I.
 

ComUtoR

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Generally I'm pro technology and I do see a future where it can sit side by side us up front. The issues I have are usually with how things get implemented. This seems like a distraction and so far I still can't see much of a purpose for it. Not as a cab tool anyway.

Potentially I can see a deviation applied in degraded working where you could, if fitted with DSS, take a route you don't sign. The usual speed caveats would apply.

The railway is very far behind technologically and that's a big shame because I see many uses where it can be a big benefit to our jobs.

BTW you should check their website and youtube channel. It will make you chuckle. <D
 

driver_m

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Might stop all the fail to calls and other incidents though..

We already have technology to combat fail to calls, and if we relied on it, our fail to calls would go through the roof. It's a useful thing to have sometimes but no substitute for our own memory and route knowledge. Don't be so sure it's a cure all. As an example of this, telling me I've got a stop at Crewe when I've departed and I'm heading towards Chester, it isn't much use is it?
 

cjmillsnun

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No, they have a typical screen. This is a good example of what a HUD can look like (taken from pilots eye view)

a8c4c53917037176ed6a4e39aac527b9.jpg

Which would be a bit extreme for railway needs.

Personally (as someone not in the industry) I'd like to see it fairly simple, so there is not too much in the view.

The reason I hold this view, is that the driver needs minimal information as too much is a distraction.

So using my limited railway knowledge I would like the speed of the train, AWS sunflower (until ETRMS), and perhaps a bi-coloured fault text - literally the word FAULT in either red or yellow (red for a stop now fault, yellow for something that would allow the train to continue (but to check the TMS at the next planned stop)- so for example a red fault could be oil pressure low, a yellow fault could be air conditioning not working.

Some additional information such as linespeed and a count down to a change of linespeed along with the upcoming linespeed could also be implemented, although IMO that's route knowledge and something the driver shouldn't need.
 
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