• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

RSSB - 'New in cab display shows route ahead'

Status
Not open for further replies.

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,258
Given the problems you get with obstacle detectors at level crossings, I'm having a hard time believing sensors all over the railway would do any better.

How intelligent are those obstacle detectors?

Sensors are only going to get better. Even if individually they might not get that much better, they will get much cheaper and so it will be possible to have several of them. A combination of multiple cameras from different angles plus radar detection plus whatever else will become available (e.g. LIDAR) will do better than any human ever could. The technology to make them work in different environmental conditions, and the ability to mass-produce them at minimal cost, will come about as a result of self-driving vehicles.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,258
Coppercapped makes a valid point. Technology is coming. However, it isn't coming in the next five years, the next ten. It probably won't come to the extent that some people think for at least the next 20-30 years. Why? Because despite the availability and low cost of the technology, it is going to have to be fettled, bodged or somehow adapted to work with what is, in effect, a Victorian network. Unless the entire network receives massive infrastructure upgrades, with complete coverage of ETCS, then any technology is going to be handicapped by the very fact that it is running on a hybrid network. In cab signalling and heads up mapping would have be turned off or disabled he moment a train left a ETCS area and crossed into a non ETCS zone.

And then there is the money issue. NR are currently about £40 billion in debt. A massive program of upgrades and modernisation is still ongoing. I can't see another £40 billion suddenly materialising to cover the cost of an entire network upgrade to ETCS.

So yes, tech will come to the footplate, but it won't be for a while yet.

The transition to ETCS will take 30 odd years but there are real benefits to be had, alongside other automation works. The money spent implementing it isn't just spent for the sake of it. ETCS has a significantly lower lifetime cost than any traditional mechanism because it cuts out so many components and replaces them with simpler wireless digital technology. It won't be necessary to spend money erecting and then maintaining huge numbers of lineside signals, including all the power and data cables required for them to work, while having fewer and fewer hours of the day available to do works. Instead, most of the trackside equipment consists of simple balises which are self-contained, require no power input and can be replaced quickly and cheaply if they do fail for some inexplicable reason. The radio antenna system can be installed and maintained away from the running lines and replacements can be installed off-line, just like mobile phone towers.

All of this means massively reduced operational costs without any loss of capability. NR going into debt to fund ETCS works is no problem whatsoever because it's the very definition of prudent borrowing. The money borrowed can be paid back using the massive efficiency savings that will come about as a result. The same goes for the vast majority of NR's borrowing, as it's being spent on schemes and maintenance which will increase revenue while reducing costs. For NR, borrowing several hundred million pounds to build the Norton Bridge flyover or other junction improvements across the country means being able to get track access fees for the additional services it will enable while having to pay out less money in delay compensation.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
Coppercapped makes a valid point. Technology is coming. However, it isn't coming in the next five years, the next ten. It probably won't come to the extent that some people think for at least the next 20-30 years. Why? Because despite the availability and low cost of the technology, it is going to have to be fettled, bodged or somehow adapted to work with what is, in effect, a Victorian network. Unless the entire network receives massive infrastructure upgrades, with complete coverage of ETCS, then any technology is going to be handicapped by the very fact that it is running on a hybrid network. In cab signalling and heads up mapping would have be turned off or disabled he moment a train left a ETCS area and crossed into a non ETCS zone.

And then there is the money issue. NR are currently about £40 billion in debt. A massive program of upgrades and modernisation is still ongoing. I can't see another £40 billion suddenly materialising to cover the cost of an entire network upgrade to ETCS.

So yes, tech will come to the footplate, but it won't be for a while yet.

ETCS is coming, and over the next 30 years will be rolled out extensively. GWML and parts of the ECML by 2020, the WCML by 2027 (according to the roll-out plan) etc. All new trains are capable of working with ETCS etc. One huge advantage is that it makes branch lines and remote, rural lines cheaper to run, so you can bet your bottom dollar there is every incentive to roll it out to those sorts of lines as soon as it's practicable. Resignalling will be utterly redundant, with the transition to ETCS level 3 being entirely a software matter - it will certainly cost money, but once it has been mastered after some trials can be rolled out with relative ease across the entire network. One thing I expect it will require is enormous amounts of computing power to ensure the higher frequency of trains and the ability to deal with problems: however, the majority of those kinds of difficulties will be concentrated on the complex mainlines and the investment will be spent on installing these powerful computers in signalling centres rather than onboard trains. I don't expect to see that before 2040, though.

This technology seems to just be an overlay to ETCS, providing a visual aid alongside the essential information that that technology will be providing. Whether or not that is necessary, and whether it will reduce the need for the exhaustive route knowledge currently required, remains to be seen. I don't think anyone thinks that no route knowledge at all will be required, however.
 
Last edited:

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,576
Still treat that roll out plan with a pinch of salt. And as for putting it on the branch lines there are some easy targets but we don't appear to want to go anywhere near them, Cumbrian Coast being a prime example. There will be plenty of old school re-signalling yet that will still have a life span of 40 years plus.
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
parts of the ECML by 2020

East Coast ETCS has already been delayed until 2022. And considering how late the electrification program is along with the fact that NR still haven't moved control of all signalling to ROC's, you really expect the roll out of ETCS to be smooth? They still don't know how much capacity improvement it will give over TCB on a congested line. I remember when the GSMR radio came out and we were assured it would never ever lose signal, funnily enough it does lose signal now and then.
 
Last edited:

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
Whether or not that is necessary, and whether it will reduce the need for the exhaustive route knowledge currently required, remains to be seen.

So the most important part is in the original post: it allows drivers to retain a greater quantity of route knowledge than they otherwise would do, which would improve operational flexibility. That's from even the quickest skim of the details.

So which is it ?

I don't think anyone thinks that no route knowledge at all will be required, however.

Ultimately that is the goal of technology. To remove the need for the human to do something. The end game is to remove the human altogether. This will lead to total removal of route knowledge.

More and more is being done to stop the Driver leaving the train and stop the Driver from making decisions.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
28,991
Location
Redcar
So which is it ?

I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive? With the implementation of more technology (note: I'm not saying this is possible right now) I can easily foresee a situation where the area that drivers sign increases but the depth of knowledge within that area decreases as the technology provides the detail that currently acts as a hard limit on the distance of route its possible to sign.
 

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive? With the implementation of more technology (note: I'm not saying this is possible right now) I can easily foresee a situation where the area that drivers sign increases but the depth of knowledge within that area decreases as the technology provides the detail that currently acts as a hard limit on the distance of route its possible to sign.

I could probably drive a train all the way to Scotland using my skills as a Driver. (it might take a while but I'd get there) Read the road ahead, drive cautiously, obey the signals. Its not difficult in all honesty. That is how satnav effectively works. It uses your existing skills and gives you the basics to get to your location. This would indeed allow situations like that. Overall it is a removal of knowledge because the area increases but the minutiae is removed. Which is better ? Limited knowledge over a wide area or wide knowledge over a limited area ? Logically it leads to no knowledge over any area.

Would you say that having minimal knowledge but backed up by a map is a good thing ? I see it as a risk because you really do need the experience over a route and the knowledge that this is not providing is what is significant to actually Drive a route

The blurb quoted states to help "retain greater knowledge". I would say that that is mutually exclusive to help "reduce the need for knowledge."

The technology can and looks to be providing the small tiny details (like signal numbers) that are easily forgotten or have little significance. The important aspects of driving a route are not gained from using a map but planning and driving to the conditions, gradients etc and using local knowledge to help control your unit.

An onboard map is good and I'm not against that but it MUST be implemented properly and used in the right circumstances.
 
Last edited:

Islineclear3_1

Established Member
Joined
24 Apr 2014
Messages
6,127
Location
PTSO or platform depending on the weather
I am not anti-technology either but computer systems can, and do fail from time to time. And what happens if the GPS fails and the train does not "know" where it is? Sometimes, the computer does say No.

I'd be much happier with a Mk1 human driver who knows the route with his eyes shut and where to stop the train in order to open the doors
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
28,991
Location
Redcar
Would you say that having minimal knowledge but backed up by a map is a good thing ? I see it as a risk because you really do need the experience over a route and the knowledge that this is not providing is what is significant to actually Drive a route

I honestly don't know! My point was simply that the two sentences you highlighted might not actually be mutally exclusive ;)

The blurb quoted states to help "retain greater knowledge". I would say that that is mutually exclusive to help "reduce the need for knowledge."

Agreed in this case. I suppose I was speaking more widely to the implementation of technology rather than this specific demonstration unit.


An onboard map is good and I'm not against that but it MUST be implemented properly and used in the right circumstances.

Indeed. Perhaps someone should ask some drivers what kind of aids they might find useful? Silly idea I know! :lol:
 

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
Indeed. Perhaps someone should ask some drivers what kind of aids they might find useful? Silly idea I know! :lol:

Which is what I often wonder about. It does seem that the entire design phase is done without the input from those who use it. We get "testing" but by that time its almost ready for deployment.

I must admit that some stuff is coming through more but even then it seems that its more of "look what's coming" rather than "should we do this"

Like you, "I don't know" What I can say is that I don't believe its wise to have Drivers driving by "satnav"
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive? With the implementation of more technology (note: I'm not saying this is possible right now) I can easily foresee a situation where the area that drivers sign increases but the depth of knowledge within that area decreases as the technology provides the detail that currently acts as a hard limit on the distance of route its possible to sign.

Exactly. That kind of aggressive response from Comutor does say a lot about how this has touched a nerve though.
 

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
Exactly. That kind of aggressive response from Comutor does say a lot about how this has touched a nerve though.

Aggressive how ?

I'm one of the few Drivers on here that is in support of the introduction of technology. I fail to see how it has touched a nerve. If anything it has peeked my interest.

You fail to answers follow up questions to things you post or clarify points that you yourself raise. You also posted two statements that on the surface do appear to contradict each other. That is not me being aggressive.

We are on the inside looking out. Not outside looking in. You can make as many statements as you wish but when called to justify the argument you sidestep.

Does technology cause distraction - Yes
Will this reduce incidents - Not really
Is this a problem needed to be solved - Not currently
Can the cost be justified - speculative but doubtful
Do we need this kind of technology - No but it is a positive step forward
Is it a useful tool - Yes
Should it be a driving aid - speculative, and that's what testing is for
Should Drivers drive by satnav - I don't believe so.
Is this safe - Only time would tell but many caveats need to apply

Am I missing anything ?

We can take each point in detail if you wish. I have no issue with the tech and I have posted to that extent. I do see both benefits and risk. If all your seeing is Drivers against technology then I would say your very much mistaken.

I'll ask again. Is this being designed to retain a high level of route knowledge or reduce the need for route knowledge ?

It is a very short step to allow no route knowledge for operational reasons.

@robert7111a I have no problem with a computer taking my job and potentially by the end of the year it may start to do so.

The easier my job gets only has a benefit for me. Removing me altogether is a whole different ball game and a different discussion entirely.
 
Last edited:

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,212
Location
Reading
Some more thoughts having followed the posts which followed on from mine.

Firstly - the ultimate goal of technology is the removal of humans. Not true - technology, like everything else evolves. It is Darwinian. There is no grand plan, what happens is the result of many people, not necessarily in the same company, the same country or even the same continent, trying out ideas to improve something. Then these ideas come together and somebody sees a market opportunity. Sometimes these things work, sometimes they don’t. There were no ‘grand plans’ to develop the motor car, the mobile phone or the internet - someone came up with an idea for an internal combustion engine which was the ideal weight, power and size for a horseless carriage and, as it happens, aeroplanes. Nobody started out with the idea that they wanted to make farriers, grooms, tackle makers and stable boys redundant by inventing the car. Or that they foresaw out of town shopping centres. Closer to home on the railways - there was no ‘grand plan’ to develop railways, but various technologies - metal working, ‘strong steam’ (as distinct from the atmospheric engine) and a market need to move goods more effectively came together. When it was showed that the idea worked then railways exploded across the landscape - but even a few years after the Battle of Waterloo there was no concept of such a thing happening.

Secondly - the type of information support/device I wrote about in my post was not intended to control the train, but supply support to the driver. However there is no reason whatsoever why it could not directly control the train - and it could control it in realtime using feeds from the railway control centres and traffic management systems to meet whatever service requirement is most important at the time - minimise delays for all trains, ensure connections are made, minimise delays for the train in question. All this is possible - and it is not expensive, practically all the data for such decision making are already available.
I assume that, even at some time in the future, passengers will not be too happy with the concept of driverless trains so a driver will be present. At this point the issue then becomes one of the best way to keep the driver alert and be in a position to take over - if he/she only supervises the electronics that becomes boring or does he/she drive the train but the computer takes over if it anticipates a problem. This is the same problem that faces the designers of aircraft flight control systems and monitoring equipment for industrial processes such as chemical works and oil refineries.

Thirdly - the concept is risky or unreliable. Just saying that something is risky, especially with no explanations as to why, does not make it so and is no argument against the change. Of course everything can, and probably will go wrong - and this is as true of humans as well as of technology. However it is possible to design systems which meet any required level of accuracy and reliability; for the system to be safer than humans it only has to be a bit better. Somewhere I read that there is one SPAD for every 50,000 (or some such number) signals approached showing a red aspect. For railway safety these are pretty good odds as most SPADs are overshoots of only a few feet and are well inside the overlaps. It is only necessary to design a system which SPADs once every 100,000 approaches to a signal at danger and the railway is even safer. But the real benefit for the railway is not in safety, but in reducing the delays which inevitably follow a SPAD: all the reports and paperwork and testing for drugs and so on. In this case the computer also reduces the chances of a black mark on the driver’s copybook.

The actual technical problem is not that something will go wrong but how does the system degrade when it does? Aircraft flight control systems are frequently triplicated, if one channel gives a spurious signal a a voting system choses the two signals that agree and ignores the third one. (This is terribly oversimplified but gives a flavour of the approach). This is necessary because if something goes wrong in an aircraft you can’t, in the words of the old song, ‘get out and get under’. If there are discrepancies anywhere in the driver support system under discussion it is always possible to stop the train and work out what to do next.

Fourthly - such a driver support system needs ETCS. Not true - as long as there is a digital model of the route a suitable display can be produced showing the features along the way even if the lie of the turnouts can’t be displayed. If it was decided that the railways need a location system independent of GPS (as its accuracy can be degraded in times of crisis or war) then all it needs is that all routes to be equipped with ETCS balises. These are essentially Radio Frequency ID chips in a plastic box - they are passive and need no power supply and are cheap. They can be added to any route independent of the type of signalling as they only act as location beacons for the train.

Fifthly - for any technology aimed at a particular user group the needs of that group have to be taken into account. The designers are specialists in their field but they are not specialists in train driving. So it is easy for them to get it wrong - either it won’t be effective as it solves a problem which doesn’t exist or it will be difficult to use and won’t be accepted at all. But bear in mind what the driver needs now may not be the same as what the driver needs in 15 years time. The system also has to evolve - Darwin again!

All change is unsettling, especially if one’s job or livelihood is perceived as being at risk. As in all things there are winners and losers - and it is often not possible in advance to predict who will land up where. But change will come - it always has and it always will. The trick is to work out how to use it to one’s own advantage - and history shows that simple opposition always fails. My feeling is that if used correctly it will enable some more trains to be run on any given set of rails. This will be beneficial for the railways as it will enable, in some areas, more traffic to be carried before very expensive infrastructure enhancements become necessary. More trains translates to more drivers.
 
Last edited:

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,897
East Coast ETCS has already been delayed until 2022. And considering how late the electrification program is along with the fact that NR still haven't moved control of all signalling to ROC's, you really expect the roll out of ETCS to be smooth? They still don't know how much capacity improvement it will give over TCB on a congested line. I remember when the GSMR radio came out and we were assured it would never ever lose signal, funnily enough it does lose signal now and then.



"Still haven't moved control of ALL signalling to ROCs"

You do realise, the majority of the ROCs have only been online a year or two, and the master plan had the whole process over 20-30 years, with some outer boxes still being in situ into 2040-2050. To think they could resignal the entire country in 2 years is astonishing, even without the current issues they are having.

Therefore, the fact all resignal long hasn't been done yet isn't a sign of anything, as only a very small percentage was meant to be done (and I would wager that a very high percentage of what was meant to be done has been done)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Given the problems you get with obstacle detectors at level crossings, I'm having a hard time believing sensors all over the railway would do any better.



Be interested to hear what "problems" you've seen or experienced? I have daily experience with them, and they work perfectly. Ok, they needed weekly cleaning until the shutters were fitted, and they have slightly more complicated operating procedures, but on the whole they work brilliantly.

From what I understand, other installations had issues with the relays that control them,and the area I'm familiar with uses some sort of solid state computer wizardry.

Even early on, we had no issues with the OD equipment, infact they have been far more reliable than the axle counters that were installed at the same time.
 

FordFocus

Member
Joined
15 Apr 2015
Messages
918
Since I've last posted there has been 8 additional pages so apologies if it's been covered.

I'm not anti-technology but I'm for technology where it aids the driver. This system is something I'm wary of because it's a potential step for removing elements of route knowledge. As covered previously, route knowledge is important. Reduction of route learning time and even removal of route refresh days, it all comes down to cost.

It could potentially have too much reliance on, especially with newer drivers. Although it's away from the railway, I remember watching about an aviation accident with a Boeing 777 on landing. The pilot for whatever reason was required to visually and hand fly the aircraft but was inexperienced in hand flying a 777 but instead had a reliance on the automated systems to do the majority of the approach. Subsequently it crashed.

One thing I would like to see is more of an effort for information for drivers been available in tablet or iPad form. Especially up to date maps and traction manuals. That is one thing technology is very good for.

I've seen DAS introduced in the cab which currently for my TOC isn't doing very much. It's useful for train length and mileage but that's it. Technology has also failed in the past with the GSM-R system failing when a SE train hit a cow.

TOCs are trying to reduce distractions in the cab but devices like these could have the opposite effect. It's getting the balance right and as someone has said, it's looking for a solution to no problem.
 
Last edited:

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
32,285
Location
Scotland
It could potentially have too much reliance on, especially with newer drivers. Although it's away from the railway, I remember watching about an aviation accident with a Boeing 777 on landing. The pilot for whatever reason was required to visually and hand fly the aircraft but was inexperienced in hand flying a 777 but instead had a reliance on the automated systems to do the majority of the approach. Subsequently it crashed.
That's a bit of an over-simplification, but the basic point still stands: reliance on automation can mean loss of manual skills.
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
"Still haven't moved control of ALL signalling to ROCs"

You do realise, the majority of the ROCs have only been online a year or two, and the master plan had the whole process over 20-30 years, with some outer boxes still being in situ into 2040-2050. To think they could resignal the entire country in 2 years is astonishing, even without the current issues they are having.

Therefore, the fact all resignal long hasn't been done yet isn't a sign of anything, as only a very small percentage was meant to be done (and I would wager that a very high percentage of what was meant to be done has been done).

Well I know of two signal boxes that were supposed to have been closed and switched to a ROC, both have been deferred.
 

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,897
But, I can also count 20 in the last year that have closed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Bromley boy

Established Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
4,609
That's a bit of an over-simplification, but the basic point still stands: reliance on automation can mean loss of manual skills.

It's good that you concede this point, reference our earlier discussion on this thread, AF447. An incident which has provoked much discussion in the aviation industry about the lack of "stick time" modern airlines pilots get before the automatics go in and the resultant deterioration of basic flying skills. Not to mention the disquiet regarding the MPL method of training. This is turning out simulator-trained pilots who can fly as first officers on glass cockpit airliners but, until they accrue 1500 hours and receive a full ATPL, are not even qualified to take a couple of mates up for a bimble in a Cessna 172.

Technology to aid people in their jobs is undoubtedly a good thing, but can become unhelpful if basic skills are no longer practiced and therefore degrade. Examples of just such basic skills are route knowledge for train drivers, stick time (and knowing what a stall is and what to do about it) for pilots.
 
Last edited:

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
Technology to aid people in their jobs is undoubtedly a good thing, but can become unhelpful if basic skills are no longer practiced and therefore degrade. Examples of just such basic skills are route knowledge for train drivers, stick time (and knowing what a stall is and what to do about it) for pilots.

This point has been brought up by the industry and can be found in some of their studies. There is an over reliance on tech and safety systems and it is contributing to incidents.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top