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Rude Thameslink RPI doesn't want to show ID

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jon0844

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It seems like there must be something more to this than we're being told. For one, it starts with no ID being shown and then ID was shown which satisfied the OP that the person was genuine. If that's the case, what was the problem exactly?

The speed at which the ID was shown? Perhaps, except it was enough to satisfy the OP?

No harm making a complaint about the attitude, but without any other complaints or witnesses, I am not sure the TOC can really do much except make a note in case of future issues.
 
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matt_world2004

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It seems like there must be something more to this than we're being told. For one, it starts with no ID being shown and then ID was shown which satisfied the OP that the person was genuine. If that's the case, what was the problem exactly?

The speed at which the ID was shown? Perhaps, except it was enough to satisfy the OP?

It was said in the original post what the problem was . when the op first asked to see ID before handing over his bank card the RPI didnt show it. Claiming if he didnt want to hand over his bank card he should have used an oyster card.then when the op persisted. The rpi called him "pathetic" before eventually showing his ID.
 

bb21

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I also don't think the tone of the complaint and the language in the final two paragraphs is at all conducive to a constructive dialogue. I always recommend letters of complaint to take a neutral tone, even if expressing displeasure and disappointment. There is no reason they cannot be removed from emotional language yet be firm and assertive. For example,

"It is my understanding that RPIs..., as stated in/required by.... I am therefore hugely disappointed and frustrated at/by.... Can your company please confirm that..., and provide me with assurances that..."

Further correspondence can then be sent for escalation should the response be considered unsatisfactory.
 

MikeWh

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If he wanted ID so he could persue any matter at a later date or refuse to use a bank card then why did he not obtain it.?

He has said that he saw a badge and photo so that did it for him. The uniform was not good enough then!

Journo thought it was important enough to ask in public for ID. Was that because he was worried about his bank details being obtained by a possible rogue dressed as a Thameslink RPI checking tickets who was harvesting bank card details?

Did he really want the details or something else? You decide for yourself.

I would at least discribe it as odd behaviour regardless of whether "the man on the clapham omnibus" knows he is entitled to ask for ID or not.
Are you, by any chance, the RPI involved in this interaction on the train?
 

Journo

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Then why did you not get the ID if that is what you genuinely wanted. You said it yoursef you did not obtain the ID so how do you know that the individual was what he should be. You don't. You do not have his ID and have no more information than you did before you asked to see it.

As I said was there a desire to satisfiy another need. How many other people did you see ask the RPI for his ID?

My god he could have been ripping em all off! :lol:

What possible other need would I have? Nobody else asked the RPI for ID, I assume they were satisfied with his authenticity.

If he wanted ID so he could persue any matter at a later date or refuse to use a bank card then why did he not obtain it.?

He has said that he saw a badge and photo so that did it for him. The uniform was not good enough then!

Journo thought it was important enough to ask in public for ID. Was that because he was worried about his bank details being obtained by a possible rogue dressed as a Thameslink RPI checking tickets who was harvesting bank card details?

Did he really want the details or something else? You decide for yourself.

I would at least discribe it as odd behaviour regardless of whether "the man on the clapham omnibus" knows he is entitled to ask for ID or not.

No, the uniform was not good enough. I have no desire for some rogue to go about scanning my bank card, hence why I asked for ID, which I I did obtain, he showed me his ID, it matched the person I saw in front of me. I do not understand what your issue with this is? I show my ID to people quite often, I am sure they do not note down everything on it.

Yes we were in public, do you suggest I ask him to accompany me to the bathroom so that I might ask to see his ID there?

Maybe you could enlighten me as to what my motivations were?
 

RJ

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Personally I wouldn't comply with any instruction from someone who can't produce ID if I chose to ask for it. They could be anyone. Uniforms aren't hard to get hold of, enough staff/ex staff flog them on eBay! Anyone who refuses to identify themselves is welcome to jog on or call the police etc.

As a member of staff who chooses to work in a frontline railway role, I accept that as part of the job I have to be able to identify myself and wear the namebadge and ID I was issued with. In 8 years of frontline service I've never had a heated exchange with a customer as I'm always nice to people at work, but people are more than welcome to see ID if they want to. I don't see what the big deal is.
 
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Bensonby

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Does anyone actually know what a genuine GTR ID badge looks like? If the uniform wasn’t convincing what’s the say the ID badge was genuine?

The RPI should have still shown it without complaint or comment though.
 

Clip

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Does anyone actually know what a genuine GTR ID badge looks like? If the uniform wasn’t convincing what’s the say the ID badge was genuine?

The RPI should have still shown it without complaint or comment though.
This was posted earlier i think https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...s Scheme Document 30 September 2016 Final.pdf

and to be honest it wouldnt take much effort to actually create your own from the format shown at the bottom - though from memory RPIs are issued with a metal ID badge too - or they used to be - which would make forging that a bit difficult.
 

Journo

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Personally I wouldn't comply with any instruction from someone who can't produce ID if I chose to ask for it. They could be anyone. Uniforms aren't hard to get hold of, enough staff/ex staff flog them on eBay! Anyone who refuses to identify themselves is welcome to jog on or call the police etc.

As a member of staff who chooses to work in a frontline railway role, I accept that as part of the job I have to be able to identify myself and wear the namebadge and ID I was issued with. In 8 years of frontline service I've never had a heated exchange with a customer as I'm always nice to people at work, but people are more than welcome to see ID if they want to. I don't see what the big deal is.

Thank you RJ, simply all I wanted was to know this chap was an RPI. While I understand using a bank card instead of an Oyster (and in this case it is just one less thing for me to misplace, and it is easier for me to track spending) attracts risk, I think this is probably easier for the railway because it is cheaper?

This was posted earlier i think https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/379337/response/933118/attach/4/GTR Penalty Fares Scheme Document 30 September 2016 Final.pdf

and to be honest it wouldnt take much effort to actually create your own from the format shown at the bottom - though from memory RPIs are issued with a metal ID badge too - or they used to be - which would make forging that a bit difficult.

There was a metal badge and wallet. Thank you for posting a link to this PDF it was very helpful. In particular"

8 Written Instructions to Authorised Collectors 8.1 Authorised Collectors will wear a distinctive uniform that clearly shows that they work for GTR, along with an indication of the route they normally work. In line with rule 5, they will carry identification and produce it when charging a penalty fare or when asked by a passenger. This identification will include the Authorised Collector’s photograph and will show that they are authorised to collect Penalty Fares on our behalf and on behalf of any other operators who have authorised them to collect penalty fares. We will not allow Authorised Collectors to collect Penalty Fares if they do not have this identification badge with them. The design of this badge will be in line with the code of practice on Penalty Fares produced by the Association of Train Operating Companies, and an example is shown in appendix F.

I can report that I got on the same train this morning, I stood in the rearmost carriage (just outside 1st class, which was probably declassified... A term I have picked up from reading this forum lots over the last few days), the RPI got on at the stop after mine and left one stop later. No tickets were checked.

I did not start out wanting to cause an issue or to complain, but I now have and I have taken all your comments on board. Normally I do not have any issues with Thameslink staff (Southern is another issue), and I hate complaining but in this case I feel that I was reasonable and the staff member was not.
 

Clip

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I did not start out wanting to cause an issue or to complain, but I now have and I have taken all your comments on board. Normally I do not have any issues with Thameslink staff (Southern is another issue), and I hate complaining but in this case I feel that I was reasonable and the staff member was not.

Do write in and let them know - its important that they make sure their staff follow the rules just like i expect passengers to follow the railways rules.

I wouldnt bother with the RPI who didnt check either - they may have been going or coming from a block and had something else to do then check tickets on a train for one stop
 

radamfi

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Badges can be forged. When employees of utilities visit the home, it is recommended that people call to check. For example

https://www.britishgas.co.uk/content/dam/british-gas/about us/pdfs/British_Gas_calling.pdf

1. Identity card

All our employees and agents show you an identity card and large print versions of these are available on request. Please check the card carefully and if you are unsure, do not let them in. The card contains the following information:

• who they represent i.e. Meter Reader or Sales Advisor
• their photograph
• contact telephone number for you to double-check their identity
• an expiry date for the card. ID cards will be surrendered on expiry
 

falcon

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Thank you RJ, simply all I wanted was to know this chap was an RPI. While I understand using a bank card instead of an Oyster (and in this case it is just one less thing for me to misplace, and it is easier for me to track spending) attracts risk, I think this is probably easier for the railway because it is cheaper?



There was a metal badge and wallet. Thank you for posting a link to this PDF it was very helpful. In particular"

8 Written Instructions to Authorised Collectors 8.1 Authorised Collectors will wear a distinctive uniform that clearly shows that they work for GTR, along with an indication of the route they normally work. In line with rule 5, they will carry identification and produce it when charging a penalty fare or when asked by a passenger. This identification will include the Authorised Collector’s photograph and will show that they are authorised to collect Penalty Fares on our behalf and on behalf of any other operators who have authorised them to collect penalty fares. We will not allow Authorised Collectors to collect Penalty Fares if they do not have this identification badge with them. The design of this badge will be in line with the code of practice on Penalty Fares produced by the Association of Train Operating Companies, and an example is shown in appendix F.

I can report that I got on the same train this morning, I stood in the rearmost carriage (just outside 1st class, which was probably declassified... A term I have picked up from reading this forum lots over the last few days), the RPI got on at the stop after mine and left one stop later. No tickets were checked.

I did not start out wanting to cause an issue or to complain, but I now have and I have taken all your comments on board. Normally I do not have any issues with Thameslink staff (Southern is another issue), and I hate complaining but in this case I feel that I was reasonable and the staff member was not.
Of course you were reasonable and the PRI was not.

Just think of all those other members of the public who did not ask to see the RPI's ID. He could have been anyone in a Thameslink uniform harvesting bank card details. It's a good job there are people like you to keep a check on things.

But might I add IF you ask to see some ones ID because you are genuinely concerned that your bank card details may be at risk, at least obtain the name or number of the person. That way it will be easier to give the details to the authorities when your bank account has been emptied.

Also give an explaination to the RPI maybe something like "I realise that you probably don't get asked to show your ID very often but I worry about security with bank cards now a days"

Don't say anything to the RPI about he could be anyone in a Thameslink uniform and if you did not really get the details from his ID just keep quite otherwise he might wonder why you aksed "can I see your ID". :E
 

transmanche

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Also give an explaination to the RPI maybe something like "I realise that you probably don't get asked to show your ID very often but I worry about security with bank cards now a days"

Don't say anything to the RPI about he could be anyone in a Thameslink uniform and if you did not really get the details from his ID just keep quite otherwise he might wonder why you aksed "can I see your ID". :E
I don't see why a passenger has to give any explanation to the RPI as to why they want to see the ID, or why they have to consider what the RPI may or may not wonder.

All the passenger has to do is to (politely) ask to see the ID - and all the RPI has to do is to show said ID without personal comment. I don't see why it's more complicated than that.
 

falcon

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I don't see why a passenger has to give any explanation to the RPI as to why they want to see the ID, or why they have to consider what the RPI may or may not wonder.

All the passenger has to do is to (politely) ask to see the ID - and all the RPI has to do is to show said ID without personal comment. I don't see why it's more complicated than that.

The passenger does not have to give any explanation at all.

BUT the passenger did give an explanation (go back and read the first post) and then the passenger in this case did not go through with the reason given for seeking ID. It was the passengers own words, see later post that confirmed he had not gone through with the reason for seeking ID.

So was there another reason for saying "can I see your ID"
 

transmanche

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The passenger does not have to give any explanation at all.
Good, I'm glad we're all agreed on that.

BUT the passenger did give an explanation (go back and read the first post) and then the passenger in this case did not go through with the reason given for seeking ID.'
He said he wanted to check the RPI's identity - and did that by looking at his ID card. Job done, the OP was satisfied.

So was there another reason for saying "can I see your ID"
Only, it would seem, in your mind.
 

Journo

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But might I add IF you ask to see some ones ID because you are genuinely concerned that your bank card details may be at risk, at least obtain the name or number of the person. That way it will be easier to give the details to the authorities when your bank account has been emptied.

Also give an explaination to the RPI maybe something like "I realise that you probably don't get asked to show your ID very often but I worry about security with bank cards now a days"

I have cut much of your sarcasm from the reply, I did explain to the RPI, as I said in my initial post you can see quite clearly that I said "When he reached me I asked to see his ID, he then asked why I wanted to see it and I stated that as I was using my bank card I wanted to check his identity." As I have said to you several times, once I saw his ID I was satisfied he was an RPI, and happy to let him scan my card.
 

farleigh

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Journo is fully in the correct.

If I say to an RPI - "show me your ID", then they have to do it. They have no say in the matter, and there is no requirement that the passenger has to ask politely. End of story.
 

skyhigh

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But might I add IF you ask to see some ones ID because you are genuinely concerned that your bank card details may be at risk, at least obtain the name or number of the person. That way it will be easier to give the details to the authorities when your bank account has been emptied.
Because if they're going around fraudulently obtaining card details they'll use their real name?

Journo is fully in the correct.

If I say to an RPI - "show me your ID", then they have to do it. They have no say in the matter, and there is no requirement that the passenger has to ask politely. End of story.
Bingo - working in an environment such as an RPI (I have...) you should be used to people asking to see your ID. It's nice if someone asks politely, but they don't have to!
 

WelshBluebird

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So was there another reason for saying "can I see your ID"

Why is that relevant for anything at all?? They doesn't have to be a reason. So even if the posters reason doesn't make much sense to you (it does to me), then it literally does not matter.
 

randyrippley

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I find it remarkable that the RPI's identity card was not on open display.
In almost every other large corporation I can think of, having your ID visible is standard procedure, if not essential to the job.
For instance if I'm working on an NHS site, wearing my NHS ID tags is compulsory. Surely the same must be true of rail staff - especially those taking money from customers?
 

AlterEgo

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I find it remarkable that the RPI's identity card was not on open display.
In almost every other large corporation I can think of, having your ID visible is standard procedure, if not essential to the job.
For instance if I'm working on an NHS site, wearing my NHS ID tags is compulsory. Surely the same must be true of rail staff - especially those taking money from customers?

Their ID is not just to say who they are but also confirms that they are an Authorised Collector. Not quite like a police warrant, but also not just an ID card either.

I can't think of many staff who display ID cards on the railway. A name badge is usually all that is needed.
 

randyrippley

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Their ID is not just to say who they are but also confirms that they are an Authorised Collector. Not quite like a police warrant, but also not just an ID card either.

I can't think of many staff who display ID cards on the railway. A name badge is usually all that is needed.

then I would suggest that needs rethinking. Anyone in a public position of authority needs to have public, open, visible proof of that position. It should be on permanent display, not "show on request"
 

AlterEgo

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then I would suggest that needs rethinking. Anyone in a public position of authority needs to have public, open, visible proof of that position. It should be on permanent display, not "show on request"

The police seem to manage okay without having their warrant badges on their chest. As do doctors and nurses, and members of the Armed Forces, even when they were walking around with rifles in Whitehall last year.

Where does it end?
 

randyrippley

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The police seem to manage okay without having their warrant badges on their chest. As do doctors and nurses, and members of the Armed Forces, even when they were walking around with rifles in Whitehall last year.

Where does it end?

Police wear tabs with their warrant numbers on, visible
NHS staff wear smart ID cards - needed constantly for room / computer access
 

AlterEgo

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Police wear tabs with their warrant numbers on, visible
NHS staff wear smart ID cards - needed constantly for room / computer access

Nurses don’t always wear ID. If I walk into A+E in Milton Keynes, the staff generally won’t have visible ID, but they do have name badges. If I want to see it (for whatever reason), I will have to ask them.

A policeman’s ID is his warrant card, not the numbers on his uniform or the name badge on his shirt or vest. The collar numbers do not identify the officer as a constable or having any lawful authority. The warrant card does.

Soldiers carry their ID identifying them in their wallet or pocket.

A firefighter does not display their ID. Nor does a magistrate. Or a judge. Etc, etc.
 

island

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There are plenty of reasons why it might not be advisable for a revenue protection officer not to have his/her ID on constant display. Plain clothes operations being one.
 

VauxhallandI

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I'm fascinated on what the other reasons are for asking to see the RPI's ID.

What's the theory?
 

Panda

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You may also choose to raise your concerns to TfL with regards to the behaviour as it would be totally unacceptable for someone to just ask you to tap your contactless card without being reasonably satisfied with who they are. They are generally quite serious about the reputation of contactless and may choose to address the matter with the TOC on your behalf.
 

matt_world2004

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There are plenty of reasons why it might not be advisable for a revenue protection officer not to have his/her ID on constant display. Plain clothes operations being one.
They cant check tickets without it being on display even the plain clothes rpis on tfl services put the badge on when checking tickets.
 
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