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RugeleyTV - Hebden Bridge via Warrington?

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toffeedanish

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I am looking to travel tomorrow from Rugeley to Hebden Bridge (and back again) using a walk-on fare. I see a £48.10 fare 'via Manchester'. Is this valid via Warrington? In my head it should be, and checking the routeing guide I think gives TM+NR validation. However I cannot force a website to give an itinerary for that route, which has me doubting myself.

Please advise, if you would be so kind. Many thanks.
 
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Watershed

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I couldn't find any journey planner except c2c (which always takes "interesting" interpretations) offering that route either. Not sure what's going on there as it's a perfectly valid route AFAICT. Possibly a reservations related issue.

It's perfectly reasonable, as it avoids a trek across Manchester if you catch the hourly service from Warrington to Hebden Bridge, albeit that doesn't always connect particularly well.

Either way, you are better off splitting at Manchester.

Edit: TM+NR only lets you travel via WBQ if you then go via Irlam. Going via Earlestown and Eccles (as the direct WBQ-HBD train does) isn't a permitted route on that map combination. So you can't go that way on a ticket to MAN.

You should still be offered routes via WBQ and ECC for a ticket to HBD, as Halifax is a valid Routeing Point for HBD, and has mapped routes that are valid that way.
 
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robbeech

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Many journey planners don’t seem to find some routes if they’re particularly slower than another option even when forced to go via somewhere. As Watershed says there might be a reservation issue where you might be able to book all the trains but the itinerary for them extends the journey time beyond what their algorithm suggests is acceptable. I’ve noticed a few journey planners no longer offering any journeys between certain points because the current timetable causes an hour delay, I’ve been meaning to collect some examples and make a thread about it actually. It’s more than reasonable route wise in my opinion, though I haven’t studied every bit of data.
 

miami

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Route shows up on nre.co.uk on singles just fine, but not on returns, where it shows the route, but claims no fares available for that route

Ahh, for singles it tries to flog an anytime to Warrington and an Advance to Hebden


£48.10 seems valid via Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Warrington Central, Birchwood, Oxford Road, Victoria, Hebden, but not Crewe, Bank Quay, Newton Le Willows, Victoria, Hebden.
 

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Mike99

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I am looking to travel tomorrow from Rugeley to Hebden Bridge (and back again) using a walk-on fare. I see a £48.10 fare 'via Manchester'. Is this valid via Warrington? In my head it should be, and checking the routeing guide I think gives TM+NR validation. However I cannot force a website to give an itinerary for that route, which has me doubting myself.

Please advise, if you would be so kind. Many thanks.
hi, From the Yellow Pages from the routeing guide gives the following combinations. Rugeley Trent Valley-Halifax Group BP+CE+SY BP+CE+WK BP+CE+WY BP+CM+GM BP+CM+MS TL+CE+SY TL+CE+WK TL+CE+WY TV+GM TV+MS
 

miami

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Sure, but this is via Manchester, and Manchester is a routing point for Hebden

Rugely to Manchester is
TM or TM+NR

TM will take you upto Warrington or Earlstown Group
Or to Crewe and upto Wilmslow, Manchester
Or to Stoke, and upto Stockport, Manchester

NR will take you from Warrington to Manchester direct (so via Birchwood), but won't take you from Earlstown to Manchester

I guess that explains why Rugely-Warrington-Deansgate-Victoria is OK, but Rugely-Newton-Salford-Victoria isn't.
 

JB_B

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I am looking to travel tomorrow from Rugeley to Hebden Bridge (and back again) using a walk-on fare. I see a £48.10 fare 'via Manchester'. Is this valid via Warrington? In my head it should be, and checking the routeing guide I think gives TM+NR validation. However I cannot force a website to give an itinerary for that route, which has me doubting myself.

Please advise, if you would be so kind. Many thanks.

As far as I can tell, route 00312 ( via Manchester) is currently set in the routeing guide data to require journeys to include *all* of the members of Manchester Routeing Point Group ( not just *at least one of* which is what I'd expect to see.)

So (for the whole route check) you'd need journeys which include all of

MAN Manchester Piccadilly
DGT Deansgate
MCO Manchester Oxford Road
MCV Manchester Victoria
SFD Salford Central

I wonder if that could be why websites are struggling? Could it be an error?

For many/most journeys, websites would be able to validate route 00312 tickets by splitting the check into any permitted routes from/to Manchester - for example, that works for journeys from Rugely to Hebden via Irlam but it won't work for Warrington->Earlestown->Eccles.

If the route was coded as *include any* Manchester Routeing Point Group member then the OP's journey would be fine - mapped on BP+CM+GM (for destination routeing point Halifax Group.)
[ this is rubbish - please ignore!]
 
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toffeedanish

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Thank you for responses so far. I'd not appreciated that map NR did not cover the direct services from Bank Quay to Hebden. With new patterns of services I think it should be re-drawn to allow people to use them.

If I split my ticket at Manchester, I'm assuming I fail a fares check for travelling via Warrington on either route, limiting me to just Crewe or Stoke routes.

So the original question is now largely academic for me on this occasion. I'm interested in the discussion generated though. Thank you for your help.
 

miami

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So (for the whole route check) you'd need journeys which include all of

MAN Manchester Piccadilly
DGT Deansgate
MCO Manchester Oxford Road
MCV Manchester Victoria
SFD Salford Central

Except NRE shows a route that goes to WBQ, Deansgate, Salford Central and Victoria - but not via Piccadilly or Oxford Road

If I split my ticket at Manchester, I'm assuming I fail a fares check for travelling via Warrington on either route, limiting me to just Crewe or Stoke routes.

£24.80 SVR from Rugeley TV to Manchester is valid via Birchwood
 
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JB_B

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Except NRE shows a route that goes to WBQ, Deansgate, Salford Central and Victoria - but not via Piccadilly or Oxford Road


Is that via Earlestown and Eccles ?
 
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alistairlees

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As far as I can tell, route 00312 ( via Manchester) is currently set in the routeing guide data to require journeys to include *all* of the members of Manchester Routeing Point Group ( not just *at least one of* which is what I'd expect to see.)

So (for the whole route check) you'd need journeys which include all of

MAN Manchester Piccadilly
DGT Deansgate
MCO Manchester Oxford Road
MCV Manchester Victoria
SFD Salford Central

I wonder if that could be why websites are struggling? Could it be an error?

For many/most journeys, websites would be able to validate route 00312 tickets by splitting the check into any permitted routes from/to Manchester - for example, that works for journeys from Rugely to Hebden via Irlam but it won't work for Warrington->Earlestown->Eccles.

If the route was coded as *include any* Manchester Routeing Point Group member then the OP's journey would be fine - mapped on BP+CM+GM (for destination routeing point Halifax Group.)
I haven't got the opportunity to check at the moment, but are you sure the data for route 00312 requires all of MAN, DGT, MCO, MCV and SFD to be included? This could only be an error if so. In any case, some journey planners (such as Trainline) are showing itineraries which don't pass through all these.

Whilst Halifax might be a valid routeing point for Hebden Bridge (for a journey from Rugeley Trent Valley), any journey that is routed via Manchester is likely to go as follows:
Manchester Victoria > Hebden Bridge > Halifax > Hebden Bridge. If the train did not call at Hebden Bridge whilst travelling from Manchester to Halifax, then this would be fine. If it does call at Hebden Bridge then the conditions of your ticket (to get you to Hebden Bridge) have been fulfilled, and it's not valid to go further.

It's possible to get to Hebden Bridge by going Manchester (Victoria or Piccadilly) > Stalybridge > Huddersfield > Halifax > Hebden Bridge of course, but I haven't yet checked if that's valid on the mapped routes.

Nevertheless, as the OP has remarked, an interesting set of conditions to examine.
 

JB_B

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I haven't got the opportunity to check at the moment, but are you sure the data for route 00312 requires all of MAN, DGT, MCO, MCV and SFD to be included? This could only be an error if so. In any case, some journey planners (such as Trainline) are showing itineraries which don't pass through all these.


You're absolutely right - I'd misinterpreted the scope of 'A' records (locations, all of which are required) in the .rgk file when used in conjunction with the group marker - please ignore me. ( Obviously loads of these tickets get sold for journeys that don't pass through all members - I was thinking that almost all would be vaild on the split route which would mask the effect. )
 

miami

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Is that via Earlestown and Eccles ?

Sorry via Warrington Central and Birchwood

Crewe-WBQ, walk to Central, then Central through Birchwood, Irlam, to Deansgate
 

NorthWestRover

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This is total nonsense (even if correct as I assume it is based on the expertise shown in the thread) unless I've misunderstood the conclusion that the ticket is not valid via Earlestown. To a lay person (me) with a good sense of geography, travelling from Rugeley to Hebden Bridge by using the direct train from Warrington BQ to Hebden Bridge seems eminently sensible. That train goes via Manchester and to a lay person would therefore seem to satisfy the condition on the ticket.
 
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Watershed

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This is total nonsense (even if correct as I assume it is based on the expertise shown in the thread) unless I've misunderstood the conclusion that the ticket is not valid via Earlestown. To a lay person (me) with a good sense of geography, travelling from Rugeley to Hebden Bridge by using the direct train from Warrington BQ to Hebden Bridge seems eminently sensible. That train goes via Manchester and to a lay person would therefore seem to satisfy the condition on the ticket.
I agree. I suppose the argument would be about the risk of undercutting intermediate fares if you extend route-wise validity to everything that is sensible or reasonable - the fares to Manchester are cheaper than those to Earlestown.

What do you expect for the industry to do in a circumstance like that - increase the Manchester fare, prohibit break of journey, or just keep things the way they are and prevent reasonable routes?

There is a cruel irony in the "simplification" of permitted routes in recent years making it more complex and expensive to travel via reasonable routes.
 

NorthWestRover

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Change the condition to "via Manchester Piccadilly" or "not valid via Newton-le-Willows".
 

miami

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Change the condition to "via Manchester Piccadilly" or "not valid via Newton-le-Willows".

The first would remove Rugeley-Bank Quay-Central-Oxford Road-Victoria

The second would allow travel via the east coast

The best solution would be connect Newton to Salford Crescent on map NR, as if a ticket from Rugely to Mnchester is valid by Bank Quay and Central (which seems reasonable to me), surely via Bank Quay and Chat Moss is also reasonable.
 

Watershed

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Change the condition to "via Manchester Piccadilly" or "not valid via Newton-le-Willows".
That would certainly be more descriptive but would only be useful on this specific flow. For other flows with the same route restriction (00312 in the data), those restrictions would require you to take a highly circuitous route, e.g. Earlestown to Rochdale.

So you would have to introduce a new route restriction code, and then work out where to allocate that code rather than 00312. I'm sure you can see why this is not really a practical suggestion given how many flows there are and how often permitted routes change.
 

alistairlees

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Just the map needs a link adding from Newton le Willows to Manchester (I think that's the bit missing). Nothing else needs to change.
 

NorthWestRover

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All seems sensible to me. I was looking at it from the normal passenger's point of view. With that current wording, somebody could easily fall foul of an enthusiastic ticket inspector when common sense would deem taking the WBQ to Hebden Bridge train to be fine.
 

alan71

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I’d asked a similar question when the Chester to Leeds service was introduced as it made sense to use it for one of my semi-regular work journeys from Wolverhampton to Halifax. I used a variety of tickets both through & split and no guards raised any concerns about the routing via Bank Quay.
 
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