Rumour that Chiltern are going to lease class 68s to replace 67s (confirmed)

[TDK]

I thought that the Class 67's where able to do 110mph along the GWML?

67's are permitted to do 110mph anywhere it wants to but in service I think it is only on Charters and when WSMR had them that would actually do 110mph in fact they are cleared for 125 on the ECML

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought that the Class 67's where able to do 110mph along the GWML?

With what stock?
There is no MK3/4 loco-hauled stock operating on GW routes.
The FGW sleeper uses class 57, and anyway doesn't need 110mph.
Possibly the odd charter.

 

[Beveridges]

I believe it was a waste of money getting tbe 67s 125mph capable seeing how little time they have spent at that speed. A design speed of 110 or even 100 would have been more appropriate.

 

[ainsworth74]

With what stock?

Hangover from when they were expected to be hauling mail trains?

 

[Sunbird24]

Hangover from when they were expected to be hauling mail trains?

They did haul mail trains on the GWML for quite a long time, however all the stock was relatively old even then and I doubt any was even rated above 90 mph. They have occasionally hauled class 325 EMUs on postal services but no idea at what speed.
During testing between Madrid and Toledo on the high speed line 67002 reached 143 mph but in the UK they were initially restricted to 110 mph due to high axle load until 2003 when all had been modified. By that time the Mail contract had been lost.

 

[sprinterguy]

They did haul mail trains on the GWML for quite a long time, however all the stock was relatively old even then and I doubt any was even rated above 90 mph.

Most of the mail and parcels fleet was rated for 100mph, however some of the "Super BGs" and the like were passed for 110mph operation, presumably for use with RES' small fleet of class 90s as much as anything else. The bogies on these vehicles were subject to a special maintenance regime where the tyres were reprofiled more regularly than would otherwise be the case to permit the higher maximum speed.

 

[ExRes]

Once again I have to say that I've no idea what happened after the end of 2000, up until then most TPOs, van sets and loco hauled 325s were rated at 100mph while there were a couple of sets of vans, which did a circular PRDC/WCML/ECML over 2 days, were passed for 110mph and almost always 90 hauled for that speed, to my knowledge the only trains ever rated at under 100mph were those hauled by 47s

 

[sprinterguy]

Ah, that's very interesting ExRes, and backs up what I have said, too: I'd wondered what exactly the 110mph vans were used for - thanks for clearing up that mystery for me!

 

[ExRes]

Ah, that's very interesting ExRes, and backs up what I have said, too: I'd wondered what exactly the 110mph vans were used for - thanks for clearing up that mystery for me!

You're welcome, looks as though we were both tapping away on the keyboard at the same time
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They did haul mail trains on the GWML for quite a long time, however all the stock was relatively old even then and I doubt any was even rated above 90 mph. They have occasionally hauled class 325 EMUs on postal services but no idea at what speed.
During testing between Madrid and Toledo on the high speed line 67002 reached 143 mph but in the UK they were initially restricted to 110 mph due to high axle load until 2003 when all had been modified. By that time the Mail contract had been lost.

Not completely correct sunbird, I can't remember what the restriction steps were now but they were most definitely 90mph restricted after introduction and maybe even lower than that initially, during the latter part of 2000, not long before my farewell to EWS, the restriction was raised to 100mph but they were most certainly not passed for 110mph

 

[Sunbird24]

Not completely correct sunbird, I can't remember what the restriction steps were now but they were most definitely 90mph restricted after introduction and maybe even lower than that initially, during the latter part of 2000, not long before my farewell to EWS, the restriction was raised to 100mph but they were most certainly not passed for 110mph

Thanks for the correction exRes, I took the speed figures from wikipedia which I know is often incorrect. I have gone back to year 2000 magazines to read about the problems, so far they say 67003 was too heavy on No 1 axle and could only be towed at 30 mph on certain routes to get it from Canton to Derby and that locos 1, 2 and 4-9 were being held at Valencia.
"Dynamic tests were carried out using a rake of 10 110mph modified NIA EWS/Royal Mail vans from November 29th 1999 to December 3rd on various routes between OOC and Plymouth/Taunton/Bristol with speeds in the high 90s being recorded on several occasions." "Some of the speeds on the Berks and Hants line were on a par with an IC125 set."
Following further modification and "weight tweaking" at OOC more tests took place between 21st and 25th January with the loco allowed to travel at 110mph on sections passed for 125mph. It travelled out via Bristol Parkway to Taunton and returned by the Berks and Hants line.
By 9th March 18 locomotives had been delivered and driver training was in progress with speeds limited to 95mph by Railtrack. 67003 was continuing testing with a view to getting the speed limit raised to 110mph.
67003 was commissioned into normal service on May 9th.
67023-67026 were delivered on May 23rd with 67023 assigned to 125mph performance testing. This is scheduled to take place on the GWML using Mk III stock in the 3rd or 4th week of August 2000. 67023 has been fitted with modified bogies for this purpose and the tests will include running at up to 125mph+10%, ie at 137.5mph. At present no plans exist for speeds above 110mph for Royal Mail van operation.
By the end of August this had not happened due to non-availability of Mk III stock and an announcement that testing above 125mph would not be permitted on the GWML.
The tests were finally carried out at 125mph on September 12/13 2000 and after this, following paperwork, the entire class would be approved for 125 mph. However, the speed of the mail trains would continue to be restricted by the speed of the towed vehicles. In most cases this was still 100 mph. Speeds above this can only occur if stock and line speed permit.

 

[jimm]

And another compelling reason for getting rid of 67s is the state of the embankments south of Bicester, which, despite lots of remedial work before the start of 100mph Mainline operations, are still suffering problems, probably not aided by the 67s hammering over the top.

A new round of work is about to start. From Buckingham Today:

A two-kilometre stretch of railway embankment carrying a major commuter route will be stabilised to prevent the land from collapsing.

Members of Cherwell District Council’s planning committee yesterday, Thursday, approved a railway embankment scheme including earthwork, construction of an access route and ecological mitigation measures on land between Piddington and Blackthorn.

The plans were approved after councillors heard monitoring devices within the embankment showed substantial movements of up to 150mm at several locations along the embankment.

http://www.buckinghamtoday.co.uk/news/local/railway-embankment-works-approved-1-6021682

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And another compelling reason for getting rid of 67s is the state of the embankments south of Bicester, which, despite lots of remedial work before the start of 100mph Mainline operations, are still suffering problems, probably not aided by the 67s hammering over the top.

The axle loading of 6-axle 67s is significantly less than the 4-axle 68s, for a similar weight (88t versus 85t).
Either way it's not good news for the route.
There's also the permanent 75mph restriction on the long embankment north of Fenny Compton.

 

[jimm]

The axle loading of 6-axle 67s is significantly less than the 4-axle 68s, for a similar weight (88t versus 85t).
Either way it's not good news for the route.
There's also the permanent 75mph restriction on the long embankment north of Fenny Compton.

Excuse me, since when has a Class 67 has six axles?

 

[The Planner]

67s are RA8 and the 68 is RA7 AFAIK?? Big aspiration to get Fenny Compton up to 90 now and it is being looked at.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Excuse me, since when has a Class 67 has six axles?

My mistake...
I was getting mixed up with class 66.

 

[TDK]

My mistake...
I was getting mixed up with class 66.

They were originally going to be 3 axle locos but unfortunately the manufacturer/designer could not produce a 3 axle 125mph rated bogie.

 

[ExRes]

My mistake...
I was getting mixed up with class 66.

Easy mistake to make my dear chap, I had the same problem when I was driving them

 

[route:oxford]

They were originally going to be 3 axle locos but unfortunately the manufacturer/designer could not produce a 3 axle 125mph rated bogie.

Who has the licence for the Class 89 bogie?

 

[Sunbird24]

Who has the licence for the Class 89 bogie?

Designed and built by Brush to BR requirements and assembled at BREL Crewe works.

 

[junglejames]

Who has the licence for the Class 89 bogie?

Brush.

Apparently both GM and Vossloh have knocked at the door of Mr Brush, regarding this bogie, but it seems as though Brush werent going to let on to all their secrets without a decent monetary contribution. It seems both GM and Vossloh were thinking of a smaller monetary value.

 

[455driver]

67s are RA8 and the 68 is RA7 AFAIK?? Big aspiration to get Fenny Compton up to 90 now and it is being looked at.

Has that been confirmed yet?
I understand they are intended to be RA7 but they are a little 'plumper' than intended!

 

[RobShipway]

So since the Class 88, is going to be based on the class 68 then I presume that it will have the same axle load rating?

I ask this due to this comment below which is within the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_88#UK_class_88 - Vossloh Euro Dual

UK class 88[edit]

In Sept. 2013 UK rail operator Direct Rail Services and leasing company Beacon Rail announced an order for ten Euro Dual locomotives, with a 700 kW engine, and 4MW rating electrical equipment (25KV AC operation). The type are to be given the UK class number 88. The design is a development of the UKLight class 68 diesel locomotives, having the bodyshell, cab, brakes, bogies, traction equipment and control software in common,[2] the diesel engine is a 950 hp (710 kW) Caterpillar C27.[

 

[KA4C]

what might dbs do with the spare 67s?
Tim

test trains

 

[YorkshireBear]

Spare 67s, well anything they want. I imagine though it is going to be test trains, maybe try and win some more thunderbird stuff.
Although also, the way things are going mail may start to creep more and more back into rail. Just in the transfer of parcels mostly, not necessarily just Royal Mail but all the parcels companies. The 325 fleet hasn't got too much slack left so maybe they will eventually find work on their original use. That is 5 years minimum though realistically. But medium to long term certainly possible.

 

[Sunbird24]

So since the Class 88, is going to be based on the class 68 then I presume that it will have the same axle load rating?

I ask this due to this comment below which is within the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_88#UK_class_88 - Vossloh Euro Dual

UK class 88[edit]

In Sept. 2013 UK rail operator Direct Rail Services and leasing company Beacon Rail announced an order for ten Euro Dual locomotives, with a 700 kW engine, and 4MW rating electrical equipment (25KV AC operation). The type are to be given the UK class number 88. The design is a development of the UKLight class 68 diesel locomotives, having the bodyshell, cab, brakes, bogies, traction equipment and control software in common,[2] the diesel engine is a 950 hp (710 kW) Caterpillar C27.[

The technical figures quoted on Wiki in the right hand column are for the Euro Dual version which is based on the Euro 4000 Co Co. The UK dual, as stated, is based on the 68 which is much smaller and lighter.
The diesel engine will no doubt be smaller and lighter than the 68 but that will be offset by the additional electrical equipment so it may well be up to a few tons lighter or heavier overall.
As far as I am aware Vossloh have not yet released any data sheets for the UK Dual and delivery is not scheduled to start until 2015 so it is unlikely that construction has started yet. It may be that design work is still ongoing so precise weights are not available yet.

 

[TDK]

So since the Class 88, is going to be based on the class 68 then I presume that it will have the same axle load rating?

I ask this due to this comment below which is within the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_88#UK_class_88 - Vossloh Euro Dual

UK class 88[edit]

In Sept. 2013 UK rail operator Direct Rail Services and leasing company Beacon Rail announced an order for ten Euro Dual locomotives, with a 700 kW engine, and 4MW rating electrical equipment (25KV AC operation). The type are to be given the UK class number 88. The design is a development of the UKLight class 68 diesel locomotives, having the bodyshell, cab, brakes, bogies, traction equipment and control software in common,[2] the diesel engine is a 950 hp (710 kW) Caterpillar C27.[

Similar set up to the old class 73 with a low power diesel unit for shunting and electric for main line I would say. A 950hp diesel engine will certainly not be powerful enough for anything else but low speed work.

 

[ash39]

Far too early to know or even predict if the 88 will have the same RA as a 68. Whilst it will look very similar from the outside, the inside is obviously totally different and my guess is it will probably be a bit lighter even with the small diesel engine.

As for 67's going back to mail, possibly but what will they carry the mail in? Most of the mk1 parcel vehicles have been scrapped or about to be scrapped. Won't get many parcels in the no.2 cab of a 67!!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Far too early to know or even predict if the 88 will have the same RA as a 68. Whilst it will look very similar from the outside, the inside is obviously totally different and my guess is it will probably be a bit lighter even with the small diesel engine.

As for 67's going back to mail, possibly but what will they carry the mail in? Most of the mk1 parcel vehicles have been scrapped or about to be scrapped. Won't get many parcels in the no.2 cab of a 67!!!

I haven't got that information. All i know is mail is being considered to be increased in the medium term.

 

[WestCountry]

As for 67's going back to mail, possibly but what will they carry the mail in? Most of the mk1 parcel vehicles have been scrapped or about to be scrapped. Won't get many parcels in the no.2 cab of a 67!!!

Possibly some of the (many) HST trailers released by IEP could be converted. Widening the doors (or ideally adding middle ones) could be prohibitively expensive though.

 

[Boothby97]

Cargowagons? They have used them on Extra Christmas Mail