Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[sprinterguy]

It's the point about 3+2 airline seating though. I don't know the proportion, but the vast majority round my way, except the ex GW ones have airline seating.

Ah fair enough, I hadn't realised there were differences in layout between the 150s and 319s, apologies for that.

 

[craigybagel]

Slightly off topic, but Porterbrook will soon have 37 10-year-old class 350s sat in a siding. Would these be more suitable to Northern than either class 319s or 323s (at the right price of course!)?

Possibly - probably even. But as you say - the right price.

We're already talking about one of the most heavily subsidised franchise's around, and Arriva as a company are not renowned for spending more then they need to. 319s are probably cheaper then 350s, and meet the franchise requirements.

 

[samuelmorris]

Agree with @yorksrob They're the same seats, but the way they're positioned bears no comparison. The 319 is a much, much better setup than a 150. Yes they're low, but you don't crack your knee on a 319 unlike a 150. Which for me, are Northerns worst unit to travel in. Yes, that includes 142s. Even 'those' ones.

Can't speak for comparisons to 142s as I haven't used the latter but the 150s with 3+2 airline seating have the unique accolade of being the only rolling stock seating in the UK that I physically cannot fit in. At 5'11 and 75kg I'm not exactly that big either.

 

[Mollman]

Slightly off topic, but Porterbrook will soon have 37 10-year-old class 350s sat in a siding. Would these be more suitable to Northern than either class 319s or 323s (at the right price of course!)?

Don't forget the slightly older ex-GA 360s, might get these at a better price.

 

[bramling]

Slightly off topic, but Porterbrook will soon have 37 10-year-old class 350s sat in a siding. Would these be more suitable to Northern than either class 319s or 323s (at the right price of course!)?

The logical destination for the 350/2s would surely have been SWR. Modify the interior to a less high density layout (i.e. similar to the 350/1s), and it would be a more logical choice for the Portsmouth route than plastered-up 442s.

 

[yorksrob]

Ah fair enough, I hadn't realised there were differences in layout between the 150s and 319s, apologies for that.

No need to apologise (unless you designed the 150 layout )

 

[Greybeard33]

Slightly off topic, but Porterbrook will soon have 37 10-year-old class 350s sat in a siding. Would these be more suitable to Northern than either class 319s or 323s (at the right price of course!)?

323s, with 3*23m carriages, are better suited to the platform lengths in Northern-land than either 350s or 319s (4*20m). For example, 323s will be able to operate in 6-car formations on the Chorley line, but 319s and 350s will be restricted to 4-car.

 

[Chrisyd]

323s, with 3*23m carriages, are better suited to the platform lengths in Northern-land than either 350s or 319s (4*20m). For example, 323s will be able to operate in 6-car formations on the Chorley line, but 319s and 350s will be restricted to 4-car.

I keep thinking about this as well. Unusually I got a train from Bolton to Piccadilly in the rush hour the other Thursday morning. It was 2*156 from Buckshaw Parkway. So 92m in length. This is a prime candidate to change to a 319 when they become available.
So the train will be shorter, admittedly with 2 less cabs, a 3+2 layout and wider doors, but I am not certain that it will increase capacity significantly. Needless to say it left Bolton full to bursting.
Going forward I know there could be more trains (but as you tend to queue into Salford Crescent I am not sure how many), so the trains need maximising in length, with Salford Crescent (and I imagine those more knowledgeable could highlight other points on the route) limited to six carriage use, the only sensible increases world be to 2 * 323.

 

[Chester1]

I keep thinking about this as well. Unusually I got a train from Bolton to Piccadilly in the rush hour the other Thursday morning. It was 2*156 from Buckshaw Parkway. So 92m in length. This is a prime candidate to change to a 319 when they become available.
So the train will be shorter, admittedly with 2 less cabs, a 3+2 layout and wider doors, but I am not certain that it will increase capacity significantly. Needless to say it left Bolton full to bursting.
Going forward I know there could be more trains (but as you tend to queue into Salford Crescent I am not sure how many), so the trains need maximising in length, with Salford Crescent (and I imagine those more knowledgeable could highlight other points on the route) limited to six carriage use, the only sensible increases world be to 2 * 323.

Salford Crescent platforms were extended to squeeze in 6x23m sets and any further extension would be extremely expensive. Oxford Road can only support 160m units by fouling points (e.g. TPE 8 coach sets) therefore it can only really support 6x23m sets for significant use. On the downside, 323s have 30 fewer seats than 319s and a large number have already been refurbished. With a clear need, a ToC that has been screwed by 769 delays and no other interest its a straight forward to keep them at Northern until December next year but it would be a big decision to keep them until the end of the franchise.

Are WMTs 323s PRM-TSI compliant?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

WMT 323s are not compliant but someone on here has posted that 323217 is at Wolverton for mods. Anyway WMT need them until the end of 2021 as things stand.

 

[notlob.divad]

For me the sensible thing to do would be to keep all the 323s at Northern, for exactly the reasons stated above. The ability to work 6 car services on the busiest electrified workings.

Then the 319s can all be converted to 769s, Thus eliminating/minimising diesel under the wires on the West of the Pennines and maximising the investment in the infrasturcture.

 

[Chester1]

For me the sensible thing to do would be to keep all the 323s at Northern, for exactly the reasons stated above. The ability to work 6 car services on the busiest electrified workings.

Then the 319s can all be converted to 769s, Thus eliminating/minimising diesel under the wires on the West of the Pennines and maximising the investment in the infrasturcture.

It would be a big jump to go from 8 x 769s to Northern ordering conversion of all 32 units!

 

[notlob.divad]

It would be a big jump to go from 8 x 769s to Northern ordering conversion of all 32 units!

But if it meant not having to modify and refurbish a chunk of the 150 rust buckets, it would be a better long term prospect for everyone.

 

[Chester1]

But if it meant not having to modify and refurbish a chunk of the 150 rust buckets, it would be a better long term prospect for everyone.

No it would be a better medium term prospect. The 769s will probably just make it into early 2030s with parts that are 45 years old. 150s will have to go earlier, probably early in the next franchise. Battery powered 323s and 350s might be much better value than 769s.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The logical destination for the 350/2s would surely have been SWR. Modify the interior to a less high density layout (i.e. similar to the 350/1s), and it would be a more logical choice for the Portsmouth route than plastered-up 442s.

Unlike the 350/1s, they aren't wired for DC. They would need extensive work to make them DC compatible.

 

[Dave91131]

Unlike the 350/1s, they aren't wired for DC. They would need extensive work to make them DC compatible.

How extensive would the work to make the 37 350/2's suitable for DC operation be in comparison to resurrecting most of the 442's?

As a previous post eluded to, a suitable seating layout for the Portsmouth line would be required but other than that and making them able to operate on DC sending them to SWR would seem the most logical solution. One assumes that much less testing, staff training etc would be required than as is the case with the 442's.

A potential added benefit could have been that if not all of the 37 sets were required for the Portsmouth line formations, any remaining could have become 'general user' for want of a better term to work with the existing 127 450's.

Of course a new thread of indefinite length could be created about how they shouldn't even be being replaced on the WCML etc...

 

[notlob.divad]

No it would be a better medium term prospect. The 769s will probably just make it into early 2030s with parts that are 45 years old. 150s will have to go earlier, probably early in the next franchise. Battery powered 323s and 350s might be much better value than 769s.

Maybe so, it would still be better value for money, than tarting up the rust buckets.

 

[swt_passenger]

Unlike the 350/1s, they aren't wired for DC. They would need extensive work to make them DC compatible.

For some relatively low value of extensive.

Shoe gear, fuses and cables. They already have a DC link between traction packages to feed the power into.

 

[507 001]

Unlike the 350/1s, they aren't wired for DC. They would need extensive work to make them DC compatible.

Stranger things have happened. Units have had far more extensive work done in the past. Look at the 458/5s, SWR 455s etc.

 

[jonesy3001]

This is the reply i got from northern on twitter, so it looks like the 323s are going.
Hi there. Yes the 323s will be leaving the Northern network, however at present we don't have a confirmed date for this, and it hasn't been confirmed where they are going. As soon as we have more information this will be posted on the website. Hope this helps. ^DS

 

[Mollman]

I read somewhere recently that the platform extensions in West Yorkshire have been delayed meaning that 6-car 331 operation can't happen yet. Instead 4 car 331s will be introduced to replace the 321/322s - presumably this will have an impact on how the new EMUs are used around Manchester e.g. Airport - Blackpool services might have to be 6-car instead of 4 (although that would be more suitable anyway). This might require some 323s to stay on where 319s are not suitable and 331s are not available.

 

[Liverpool 507]

There is a 323 movement scheduled this coming Saturday from Longsight to Allerton for staff training to take place.

 

[Red Devil]

There is a 323 movement scheduled this coming Saturday from Longsight to Allerton for staff training to take place.

Good. This came to a halt as the unit that was there before was required for duty.
Heard there's a lot more 323 work in the latest diagrams for Liverpool

 

[LOL The Irony]

This is the reply i got from northern on twitter, so it looks like the 323s are going.
Hi there. Yes the 323s will be leaving the Northern network, however at present we don't have a confirmed date for this, and it hasn't been confirmed where they are going. As soon as we have more information this will be posted on the website. Hope this helps. ^DS

Virgin twitter staff didn't even know the Pendolino's were being repainted and one member of this forum, who is a Virgin frontline staff member didn't know the Voyagers were being repainted.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah I'd expect to see that sort of info posted here long before a TOC's Twitter know about it.

 

[js1000]

This is the reply i got from northern on twitter, so it looks like the 323s are going.
Hi there. Yes the 323s will be leaving the Northern network, however at present we don't have a confirmed date for this, and it hasn't been confirmed where they are going. As soon as we have more information this will be posted on the website. Hope this helps. ^DS

I wouldn't trust TOC staff on Twitter. They know very little about the in and outs of the franchise re. rolling stock etc. and are there to answer passengers problems at stations, delays etc

 

[jonesy3001]

Virgin twitter staff didn't even know the Pendolino's were being repainted and one member of this forum, who is a Virgin frontline staff member didn't know the Voyagers were being repainted.

I was going to reply back but I'd thought best of asking round the forums first.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the Northern 323s, are/were some of them designed with a different interior layout so as that they could be specially dedicated for the Manchester Airport services?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Regarding the Northern 323s, are/were some of them designed with a different interior layout so as that they could be specially dedicated for the Manchester Airport services?

They still are just the idea was scrapped because it quickly became impossible to keep those units just on airport services.

 

[BenW390Fan]

Some 323's have been operating near Liverpool recently, one for LNWR on the Liverpool - Birmingham service and Northern 323's popping their heads out every now and then.