Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[bramling]

The poster mentioned achieving 100mph on ECS. So the answer must be at least partly to do with the electrics making more stops.

Either way I’d say from (unscientific!) experience it appears a 180 would outperform a 1980s EMU, in certain speed profiles at any rate. Certainly on the GN out of King’s Cross a HT or GC 180 used to outperform something like a 317 or 321, the latter only really finally achieving 100mph by about Hatfield area. Less sure how all-stops local work would compare though.

 

[Greybeard33]

The poster mentioned achieving 100mph on ECS. So the answer must be at least partly to do with the electrics making more stops.

Also, the 175 has 340kW of diesel power per car. The 319's four traction motors have a rated output of only 247kW each to power a 4-car unit. And I imagine that the 319 motors are geared to maximise acceleration at lower speeds, such that they are operating on the backside of the power curve at 100mph. Whereas the 175, being a regional unit, will be geared so that the engines develop maximum power at a higher speed.

 

[craigybagel]

The poster mentioned achieving 100mph on ECS. So the answer must be at least partly to do with the electrics making more stops.

I was comparing with a 175 stopping at both Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge (as used to happen regularly on Northern strike days before TfW took over the franchise), which used to easily reach 100mph. The poster claims it's impossible to hit that speed between those two stations on a 319. Granted, the neutral section won't help , but it's still a surprising situation, and a rather damning indictment of the 319s performance.

 

[Grannyjoans]

More unpleasant than 150s?

No the 319 cab is not as bad as a 150

 

[Grannyjoans]

Deleted repeat post

 

[317 forever]

At a guess leasing costs.

There might also be the question of 319s having been refurbished more recently than 323s, as well as 769s coming here soon.

 

[jonesy3001]

Since WMT are refurbishing there 323s, are any of the northern 323s likely to be refurbished and have the PRM mods done before they leave the franchise or is it to late to do them?

 

[Llama]

Also, the 175 has 340kW of diesel power per car. The 319's four traction motors have a rated output of only 247kW each to power a 4-car unit. And I imagine that the 319 motors are geared to maximise acceleration at lower speeds, such that they are operating on the backside of the power curve at 100mph. Whereas the 175, being a regional unit, will be geared so that the engines develop maximum power at a higher speed.

This is the problem, 319s are absolutely woeful at low speeds (<25mph) and high speeds (>80mph).

You might think that the electric traction motors in a 319 would give most torque from a standstill and at low speed but they just don't.

This is why the 769s will be so awful and destroy timetables. A noisy, less powerful 319 with a lower proportion of adhesive weight.

 

[hwl]

Also, the 175 has 340kW of diesel power per car. The 319's four traction motors have a rated output of only 247kW each to power a 4-car unit. And I imagine that the 319 motors are geared to maximise acceleration at lower speeds, such that they are operating on the backside of the power curve at 100mph. Whereas the 175, being a regional unit, will be geared so that the engines develop maximum power at a higher speed.

The 175s have hydraulic transmissions (Voith T211R fitted to everything from 142-171) so aren't geared as such. The final drive ratio is set to achieve the maximum design speed exactly as the 319s gear ratio has been chosen for the max speed 100mph not low speed acceleration you can't do both.
Back of the envelope calculations like this are equivalent to comparing apples and orange.
In practice when you account for auxillairy loads and transmission inefficiencies on 175 they won't have the extra power than crude comparison show.
The apparent 319 poor performance is due to the historic traction power control system & DC motor combination rather than gearing.
All rail diesel engines develop maximum power at max engine rpm.

 

[Jonny]

]
All rail diesel engines develop maximum power at max engine rpm.

I take it you mean the powerband in the context of a non-rail diesel/petrol/etc. engine?

 

[samuelmorris]

All rail diesel engines develop maximum power at max engine rpm.

Though apparently not true in the case of the engine used in the 230...

 

[Starmill]

Performance from a standing start seems much better on certain class 319 units than others, in contrast to a 323 where all units seem to be able to give it the beans. Whether this is because some drivers have developed their own approach over time, because of changeable weather conditions (temperatures, damp etc) or because the motors are in poorer condition on some units than others, I don't know. I'm inclined to think it could well be a part of all three. Perhaps those who drive them have some ideas.

 

[hwl]

Though apparently not true in the case of the engine used in the 230...

Proper rail engines (NRMM origin) not ones lift straight from light / medium duty road vehicles

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Since WMT are refurbishing there 323s, are any of the northern 323s likely to be refurbished and have the PRM mods done before they leave the franchise or is it to late to do them?

The WMT 323 accessibility mods are being done by the owning company not the TOC. I assume Porterbrook thinks there'll be a market for them otherwise they'd not be removing a unit from traffic (and thus getting no revenue for it) in order to do so. I expect they'll still be in use with WMT this time next year so will need the mods. Northern's units were assumed to be leaving before the deadline, so there was probably no plan in place to schedule them for modifications. As things stand, I won't be surprised to hear that a programme is being devised for the Northern 323s, in the event of either (a) them being retained instead of 319s, or (b) there not being sufficient 331s in traffic by late autumn. Particularly with the changes to the allocations of 331s (Neville Hill now getting 4-car instead of 3-car)

 

[jonesy3001]

The WMT 323 accessibility mods are being done by the owning company not the TOC. I assume Porterbrook thinks there'll be a market for them otherwise they'd not be removing a unit from traffic (and thus getting no revenue for it) in order to do so. I expect they'll still be in use with WMT this time next year so will need the mods. Northern's units were assumed to be leaving before the deadline, so there was probably no plan in place to schedule them for modifications. As things stand, I won't be surprised to hear that a programme is being devised for the Northern 323s, in the event of either (a) them being retained instead of 319s, or (b) there not being sufficient 331s in traffic by late autumn. Particularly with the changes to the allocations of 331s (Neville Hill now getting 4-car instead of 3-car)

The only answer i get off the morons that run the northern twitter page is that they wont be staying and going back to the leasing company and they didn't get the fleet number right.
Here is the reply i got;
Hello, the 232 units are not set to be refurbished by us as they will be going back to the lease holding companies. ^LM

 

[driver_m]

The only answer i get off the morons that run the northern twitter page is that they wont be staying and going back to the leasing company and they didn't get the fleet number right.
Here is the reply i got;
Hello, the 232 units are not set to be refurbished by us as they will be going back to the lease holding companies. ^LM

They're hardly going to deviate from the party line are they? And writing the number the wrong way hardly makes them a moron. It's a mistake and I'd like to see you try to do the job. The abuse ours can get makes you wince.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The only answer i get off the morons that run the northern twitter page is that they wont be staying and going back to the leasing company and they didn't get the fleet number right.
Here is the reply i got;
Hello, the 232 units are not set to be refurbished by us as they will be going back to the lease holding companies. ^LM

I'm not sure a typo qualifies them as "morons" to be fair... a TOCs social media team are generally not going to know about what is being planned at a corporate level. It may be that Northern's management are in discussions with Porterbrook about whether to keep 323s, or the whole thing might be wishful thinking by enthusiasts... but either way, if a change in strategy is being devised the Social Media team won't announce it without approval from management.

They're fresh graduates paid barely minimum wage (or even unpaid interns) to spend hours at a computer/tablet to deal with complaints that may or may not be justified, and with enquiries from enthusiasts which they generally respond well to if it's done politely. They won't be permitted to go "off-piste" or to reveal information which has been embargoed prior to an official announcement.

 

[bramling]

The WMT 323 accessibility mods are being done by the owning company not the TOC. I assume Porterbrook thinks there'll be a market for them otherwise they'd not be removing a unit from traffic (and thus getting no revenue for it) in order to do so. I expect they'll still be in use with WMT this time next year so will need the mods. Northern's units were assumed to be leaving before the deadline, so there was probably no plan in place to schedule them for modifications. As things stand, I won't be surprised to hear that a programme is being devised for the Northern 323s, in the event of either (a) them being retained instead of 319s, or (b) there not being sufficient 331s in traffic by late autumn. Particularly with the changes to the allocations of 331s (Neville Hill now getting 4-car instead of 3-car)

I'd say that accessibility modifications being carried out raises the odds somewhat that these units will have a future. Hitherto one of the arguments in favour of Northern running with 319s over 323s was that the former is PRM compliant whereas the latter isn't.

The 323s are a much better bet for Northern. They're superior to 319s in most respects, in particular performance terms. Even better if they can run 2x323 instead of 1x319. And a win-win situation if the displaced 319s can be converted to diesel or bi-mode propulsion.

 

[Bantamzen]

They're hardly going to deviate from the party line are they? And writing the number the wrong way hardly makes them a moron. It's a mistake and I'd like to see you try to do the job. The abuse ours can get makes you wince.

And its not their job to keep enthusiasts up to date on stock moves, leases etc. I know they come in for a lot of flack but complaining about something like this is very unfair from that member.

 

[mandub]

Northern have def been in discussion with Porterbrook to get more 323's when they leave the Midlands.
Dunno what the outcome of the discussions is/was, but I heard this in December from a manager directly involved

 

[LOL The Irony]

Though apparently not true in the case of the engine used in the 230...

Maybe because it's engine is usually found in the Ford Ranger pick-up truck?

 

[hwl]

Maybe because it's engine is usually found in the Ford Ranger pick-up truck?

And Transits.
It isn't designed to take the 3+ decades of abuse the typical rail engines gets hence they can rev higher beyond the max power point which is inefficient and significantly increases engine wear.

 

[whhistle]

They're fresh graduates paid barely minimum wage (or even unpaid interns) to spend hours at a computer/tablet to deal with complaints...

Perhaps in Northern Land.
Virgin Trains West Coasts' social media "consultants" earn about £32k a year...
The info controllers who man it overnight are on ~45k...

 

[317 forever]

Northern have def been in discussion with Porterbrook to get more 323's when they leave the Midlands.
Dunno what the outcome of the discussions is/was, but I heard this in December from a manager directly involved

Northern may need a few more 323s briefly for Northern Connect services if some 331s are late to be delivered and enter service.

 

[anamyd]

And Transits.

It's a larger 200hp 3.2 litre, 5-cylinder version which is not usually found in Transits, at least not in the UK where it's optional on the Jumbos and not available at all on any smaller variants.

 

[jh64]

Perhaps in Northern Land.
Virgin Trains West Coasts' social media "consultants" earn about £32k a year...
The info controllers who man it overnight are on ~45k...

Arguably, exposure to Twitter comments at your job should come with hazard pay!

 

[Grannyjoans]

323's are much better from the driving cab point of view as well. The cab is much better as you get more room and a more adjustable seat. The acceleration is a lot quicker as well. There are some cases (particularly on a station on an uphill gradient ) where I bet a 323 could reach 30mph in the time it takes a 319 to reach 10!

 

[LOL The Irony]

The acceleration is a lot quicker as well. There are some cases (particularly on a station on an uphill gradient ) where I bet a 323 could reach 30mph in the time it takes a 319 to reach 10!

Apparently, all the acceleration in a 319 comes between 30 & 80MPH and there's a deadspot either side of those figures.

 

[p1ash]

Gemini rail case study on the 323 PRM works suggests PRM order TBC for the 17No. Northern 323s?

Also says 2 units will be done at the same time, each taking 20 'working' days, with a train being delivered every 2 weeks.
With approx 30 weeks to the end of the year, that would mean a maximum of 17 units PRM'd (2 already complete) by the end of the year.
The 50 weeks in 2020 would allow a further 25 units to be completed, completing the entire fleet, if an order has been placed by Porterbrook.

 

[themiller]

Gemini rail case study on the 323 PRM works suggests PRM order TBC for the 17No. Northern 323s?

Also says 2 units will be done at the same time, each taking 20 'working' days, with a train being delivered every 2 weeks.
With approx 30 weeks to the end of the year, that would mean a maximum of 17 units PRM'd (2 already complete) by the end of the year.
The 50 weeks in 2020 would allow a further 25 units to be completed, completing the entire fleet, if an order has been placed by Porterbrook.

It also says that the first unit was handed over to the west midlands on 09th February 2019 as the first of their 26 units with Northern's being an optional add-on so, at that rate, I think that 25 could be completed by the end of the year.
https://www.geminirailgroup.co.uk/case-studies/class-323-overhaul/