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Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

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Geeves

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I was talking about the WM franchise that was awarded on the 10 December 2017 and the stock for Greater Anglia which was ordered October 2016. Not Northern. So yes as I was saying Porterbrook in regards to the WM franchise and 323s could have seen this coming could they not?
 
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Domh245

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I was talking about the WM franchise that was awarded on the 10 December 2017 and the stock for Greater Anglia which was ordered October 2016. Not Northern. So yes as I was saying Porterbrook in regards to the WM franchise and 323s could have seen this coming could they not?

They probably will have seen it coming by then, but they couldn't do much about it at that point.
 

John C

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With the 323’s venturing onto new routes in the coming months will new destination blinds be required on these units as to my knowledge they have different blinds to the northern dmu fleet. The current blinds on the 323’s seem specific to the routes these units currently operate and also include via points (e.g Crewe via Manchester Airport). I don’t think they’ll have Liverpool or Blackpool on them.
 

js1000

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I suspect relatively new trains stuck in a siding would be politically embarrassing and the 377/5 rather quickly found work elsewhere, however the 323's and 365's while they have life left in them they aren't exactly new being over 20 years old so I'm not so sure the Dft will loose as much sleep over them being stuck in a siding.

Arriva Northern costed a franchise based on 319's and they are probably perfectly good enough to last until the end of the franchise, so to change I expect Porterbrook or the Dft are going to need to offer Northern a very good reason to change to 323's or anything else.
The 319s can't even stick to the 323 schedule on the Man Airport to Piccadilly stoppers because of their poor acceleration. Surely that is a good enough reason? The capacity difference is negligible. I just can't see how going back to old trains can cut it. It's a step backwards - not a step forwards.
 

50032

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The 319s can't even stick to the 323 schedule on the Man Airport to Piccadilly stoppers because of their poor acceleration.
Not strictly true. You just can't make up any lost time (lost due to TPE usually...) with a 319.
 

Bovverboy

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The 319s can't even stick to the 323 schedule on the Man Airport to Piccadilly stoppers because of their poor acceleration.

In fairness to the 319s, Picc-Airport-Picc is a tight circuit, it's c.50 minutes scheduled running in every hour, plus two turnarounds, and I don't think the 323s would do substantially better.

Anyway, for those of you who think 319s aren't suited to Airports, here's a possible alternative duty I suggest they could have done.

Stockport CMD c.0540 ECS via Wilmslow to Manchester Airport for c.0620 (in order to exchange units with the 0640 Airport-Liverpool) then
c.0630 ECS Manchester Airport-Alderley Edge
0649 Alderley Edge-Picc
0738, 0938, 1138, 1338, 1538 Picc-Alderley & returns
1738 Picc-Crewe
1834 Crewe-Oxford Road
1943 Oxford Road-Wilmslow & 2056 return
2143 Oxford Road-Wilmslow
2225 ECS Wilmslow-Stockport CMD

There is additional mileage, Wilmslow-Airport-Wilmslow, compared to the present routine, but I suggest it's justified if it's going to eliminate the need for the pantomime which currently takes place at the Airport at c.1840 most evenings.

The 0630 Stoke-Picc, arr Picc 0727 (covered by a 323 ex Longsight) would need to do a quick turnaround to do 0732 Picc-Macclesfield.

It's too late now, of course, if it's all going into the melting pot in May.
 

whhistle

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Politically however to have people standing on trains whilst some are stored isn't exactly a vote winner.
Politically though, it's none of their business is it?

A local Asda selling out of bread, yet another one no more than 10 miles away is throwing un-sold bread away isn't exactly a "vote winner" either but it happens.
 

notlob.divad

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Politically though, it's none of their business is it?

A local Asda selling out of bread, yet another one no more than 10 miles away is throwing un-sold bread away isn't exactly a "vote winner" either but it happens.

It very much is their business, given the DfT is the customer and the Minister signs of on the franchise agreement. If company x just decided to run trains.

If the available EMUs were owned by more than a couple of different ROSCO to the ones currently being used, you could get a bidding war where one under cuts the other's leasing costs and makes it viable for the TOC to pay any penalty clause in their current contract and take on the different stock. However as all the 319s and 323s are from the same ROSCO, instead you need a situation that is in everybody's interest to make it work. The only thing currently out there that can do that is the 'flex' conversion program. Particularly if it is good enough to do direct replacements for 4 car DMUs.

If PRM-ing the 323s and flex-ing the 319s has a better long term BCR, than the PRM and corrosion issues on some of the sprinters. Then it is in everyone's interest to go down that route. But DfT will probably want to see some results from the Flex before signing off the change.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I expect you know the DfT has had a running war with the big 3 ROSCOs for a decade or so.
They will shed no tears if the ROSCOs end up with stock on their hands.
Remember the ROSCOs have had top dollar on all this stock for 20 years or so, and have had to do little upgrading so far.
The CMA complained the DfT was preventing a proper market in used stock by interfering in TOC commercial decisions.
There is no Fat Controller for rolling stock any more even if some folk on here think there should be.

Northern had Hobson's Choice on the 319s in 2013, and the 323s in 2015 for that matter.
In 5 year's time there should be a much better choice for them to make long term.
What we don't know is what the current leasing arrangements are for their EMUs (ie how long they are committed to 319s).
And it's now complicated by the 769 programme, which looks like keeping 319 tech on the books long term.
 
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edwin_m

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If the available EMUs were owned by more than a couple of different ROSCO to the ones currently being used, you could get a bidding war where one under cuts the other's leasing costs and makes it viable for the TOC to pay any penalty clause in their current contract and take on the different stock. However as all the 319s and 323s are from the same ROSCO, instead you need a situation that is in everybody's interest to make it work. The only thing currently out there that can do that is the 'flex' conversion program. Particularly if it is good enough to do direct replacements for 4 car DMUs.
You might get the bidding war during the franchise bidding period, when the various bidders try to get the best deal from the ROSCOs for the trains they want. But the franchisee will then sign up to a contract, almost certainly for the entire franchise period, so if they want to replace some trains they will end up paying for the old stuff as well as the new. The only exceptions might be if the trains were sufficiently bad to trigger some performance clause in the contract, or if the same ROSCO offered them a swap and it was beneficial to both parties. The only reason I can see why Porterbrook might want some 319s back is if there was huge demand for 769 conversions, but given the difficulties in delivering even the small number ordered I can't see that happening.
 

Chester1

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You might get the bidding war during the franchise bidding period, when the various bidders try to get the best deal from the ROSCOs for the trains they want. But the franchisee will then sign up to a contract, almost certainly for the entire franchise period, so if they want to replace some trains they will end up paying for the old stuff as well as the new. The only exceptions might be if the trains were sufficiently bad to trigger some performance clause in the contract, or if the same ROSCO offered them a swap and it was beneficial to both parties. The only reason I can see why Porterbrook might want some 319s back is if there was huge demand for 769 conversions, but given the difficulties in delivering even the small number ordered I can't see that happening.

At this rate the only Porterbrook change that is likely is cancelling the 769 project or at least Northern's order! There should be a date after which Northern becomes no longer obliged to take them. The simplest solution would then be extra 195s.
 

whhistle

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It very much is their business, given the DfT is the customer and the Minister signs of on the franchise agreement. If company x just decided to run trains.
That's not what you wrote though.
If one company is always short forming, yet another company runs around empty all the time, politics has nothing to do with it in the consumers eyes. They just think the first company don't have enough trains.
 

Bovverboy

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In fairness to the 319s, Picc-Airport-Picc is a tight circuit, it's c.50 minutes scheduled running in every hour, plus two turnarounds, and I don't think the 323s would do substantially better.

Anyway, for those of you who think 319s aren't suited to Airports, here's a possible alternative duty I suggest they could have done.

Stockport CMD c.0540 ECS via Wilmslow to Manchester Airport for c.0620 (in order to exchange units with the 0640 Airport-Liverpool) then
c.0630 ECS Manchester Airport-Alderley Edge
0649 Alderley Edge-Picc
0738, 0938, 1138, 1338, 1538 Picc-Alderley & returns
1738 Picc-Crewe
1834 Crewe-Oxford Road
1943 Oxford Road-Wilmslow & 2056 return
2143 Oxford Road-Wilmslow
2225 ECS Wilmslow-Stockport CMD

There is additional mileage, Wilmslow-Airport-Wilmslow, compared to the present routine, but I suggest it's justified if it's going to eliminate the need for the pantomime which currently takes place at the Airport at c.1840 most evenings.

The 0630 Stoke-Picc, arr Picc 0727 (covered by a 323 ex Longsight) would need to do a quick turnaround to do 0732 Picc-Macclesfield.

It's too late now, of course, if it's all going into the melting pot in May.

My mistake, the point in time where a Stockport-based 319 gets swapped for a replacement ex-Allerton is of course 1940 (not 1840).

It seems I was also incorrect in stating that the above suggestion would involve additional mileage since, if the Airport shuttles were to return to 323 operation the unit could be supplied from Longsight rather than Stockport, conversely Stockport could supply a unit for any of the five diagrams which currently run out of Longsight ECS to Crewe, Macclesfield, or Stoke. (The one heading for Stoke would be favourite, since I believe it runs as a single unit throughout).

The above savings in mileage would make up for, or perhaps more than make up for, the ECS Wilmslow-Airport-Wilmslow. There would probably be similar savings available at close of service, too.
 
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Grannyjoans

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I've not had time to read all the thread so does anyone know:

If Northern are getting all the 323's ?
Has the 319 flex project had any success ? Or have they given up ?


Or are both still completely unknown? I work for this company but they don't tell traincrew anything that's going to happen until it actually happens.
 

FordFocus

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Going to be running out of storage space at this rate for units.

The big 3 ROSCOs have been too expensive and have raked in the cash at the expense of passengers and TOCs for years. The era of cheap credit and TOCs signing off new rolling stock orders because it's better business sense has seen to this. Rare praise from me to the DfT, NAO, Transport Select Committee and possibly the Tories for actually doing something that privatisation was meant to do. Mostly letting TOCs making rolling stock decisions in their bids. The times of TOCs simply passing on ex-BR rolling stock (that's been paid off x amount of times) through franchises is thankfully seemingly coming to an end. CAF, Siemens and Alstom Widnes opening up potential assembly line is helping the cause. More overseas investors are pumping in money to train leasing to open up the market.

If ROSCOs don't want their 323, 365 and 707 fleets that have plenty of life in them then I suggest they lobby for electrification. I think the 455 fleet is going for scrap despite their recent AC traction modifications.
 

js1000

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I've not had time to read all the thread so does anyone know:

If Northern are getting all the 323's ?
Has the 319 flex project had any success ? Or have they given up ?


Or are both still completely unknown? I work for this company but they don't tell traincrew anything that's going to happen until it actually happens.
Honestly, we don
Going to be running out of storage space at this rate for units.

The big 3 ROSCOs have been too expensive and have raked in the cash at the expense of passengers and TOCs for years. The era of cheap credit and TOCs signing off new rolling stock orders because it's better business sense has seen to this. Rare praise from me to the DfT, NAO, Transport Select Committee and possibly the Tories for actually doing something that privatisation was meant to do. Mostly letting TOCs making rolling stock decisions in their bids. The times of TOCs simply passing on ex-BR rolling stock (that's been paid off x amount of times) through franchises is thankfully seemingly coming to an end. CAF, Siemens and Alstom Widnes opening up potential assembly line is helping the cause. More overseas investors are pumping in money to train leasing to open up the market.

If ROSCOs don't want their 323, 365 and 707 fleets that have plenty of life in them then I suggest they lobby for electrification. I think the 455 fleet is going for scrap despite their recent AC traction modifications.
The 707s will undoubtedly find a home in the South East commuter services as long as they put a toilet in it. Likewise I reckon all the 323s will be taken by Northern - although probably eventually at the expense of the 24 319s that are currently operated by Northern. Porterbrook seem to be having reasonable success in convincing TOCs to take the other 319s on as is or 769s even if we haven't heard anything concrete as to whether they even work. The 365s will be retained with the intention that further electrification schemes over the coming years.

But yes, I'd concur we are in a much better and egalitarian place from a passengers' perspective with much needed stock over the coming few years. Modernising existing creaking rolling stock was long overdue.

EDIT:
On the subject of what to do with the 365s
 
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td97

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northernassist have posted on Twitter that they cannot confirm the future classes that will operate the electrified Bolton line alongside the 331s. Could be promising for the 323s (or whatever else Northern can find)
https://twitter.com/TheGNRP/status/994572852727820289
Other than the brand new electric trains which begin operating in December, we don't yet have any confirmation of the classes that will run on the line after electrification is completed ^JB
 

LowLevel

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Why would their Twitter team know anyway? It's not the kind of information that usually be of use to them or in their domain. They're not intended to cater to interested enthusiasts.
 

td97

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Why would their Twitter team know anyway? It's not the kind of information that usually be of use to them or in their domain. They're not intended to cater to interested enthusiasts.
This whole thread is just speculation... their Twitter post is just a little more to add into the mix
 

swt_passenger

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Why would their Twitter team know anyway? It's not the kind of information that usually be of use to them or in their domain. They're not intended to cater to interested enthusiasts.
I think if I worked for Northern Twitter I’d try for management permission to announce loco hauled 442s, or something equally frothy...
 

pemma

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Why would their Twitter team know anyway? It's not the kind of information that usually be of use to them or in their domain. They're not intended to cater to interested enthusiasts.

Indeed. The Twitter team said they had no information on 170s transferring from Scotrail until Scotrail started preparing some to transfer, despite the fact 170s are mentioned in the franchise agreement.
 

js1000

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Does anyone know the schedule from December when the Northern 323s start to return to Porterbrook?
 

pemma

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Does anyone know the schedule from December when the Northern 323s start to return to Porterbrook?

There isn't a fixed set in stone one as 323s being returned is dependent on 331s entering 'unrestricted revenue earning service.' Although, the 323s are officially off lease around New Year's time.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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There isn't a fixed set in stone one as 323s being returned is dependent on 331s entering 'unrestricted revenue earning service.' Although, the 323s are officially off lease around New Year's time.

Given that there appear to be no other takers for them arranging an extension to the existing leases should be easy enough. Given Northern's recent training woes it would probably be a good idea to delay service entry for the 331s until there is some certainty about the availability of trained crews. September 2019 looks like a reasonable target date though limited substitutions before then could happen. Given the main shortage of stock is of DMUs it would appear sensible to concentrate training efforts on the 195s ahead of the 331s.
 

pemma

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Given that there appear to be no other takers for them arranging an extension to the existing leases should be easy enough. Given Northern's recent training woes it would probably be a good idea to delay service entry for the 331s until there is some certainty about the availability of trained crews. September 2019 looks like a reasonable target date though limited substitutions before then could happen. Given the main shortage of stock is of DMUs it would appear sensible to concentrate training efforts on the 195s ahead of the 331s.

Even if there was another operator wanting the 323s they would have to wait if the 331s aren't ready, just like Northern have been made to wait for cascaded 150s.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Even if there was another operator wanting the 323s they would have to wait if the 331s aren't ready, just like Northern have been made to wait for cascaded 150s.

Given that CAF presented the first complete unit in January it would appear that production is going smoothly. Indeed the start of UK testing was announced at that time as being due during August though recent reports suggest this has slipped a month. But it is the DMUs that Northern urgently needs.
 
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