Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[scrapy]

Blackpool are set to sign 323's in the future according to a Blackpool Driver so there are indications that they will work out of Blackpool. Probably on Manchester via Chorley rather than Liverpool via Wigan.

They were planned to work between Blackpool and Macclesfield/Stoke from May this year had electrification been completed with some 6 car workings. Whether they will still be at Northern if/when this service starts remains to be seen.

 

[978wta]

I saw a few 323's stabled on Longsight in the afternoon.
I used to see none at all or one at most.
None have been handed back. They're just not using them all.
The 319's are doing the Crewe services because they now go through to Lime Street now.

A Sunday will see a few more stabled at Longsight than midweek. Today saw 4 stabled after the morning rush but by 5pm there was only one, the others were in service.

 

[KevinTurvey]

323's on the Wigan - Liverpool stoppers would seem to make sense. I have noticed on occasions the 319's struggle in the wet at Bryn and Thatto. The higher ratio of motored axles would surely help keep or even speed up the timetable a bit?

 

[driver_m]

323's on the Wigan - Liverpool stoppers would seem to make sense. I have noticed on occasions the 319's struggle in the wet at Bryn and Thatto. The higher ratio of motored axles would surely help keep or even speed up the timetable a bit?

323s are pretty rank in wet weather too. Should be snapping up those 350s soon going spare. Now they are good in wet weather...

 

[WatcherZero]

At the weekend was on a replacement rail service, Pacer from Southport to Victoria via Chat Moss. It was interesting comparing its ride quality to the 350's. The Pacer really struggled on the high speed points of the WCML and any banking in general, but arguably on Chat Moss where the 350's can be a bit floaty with a lot of hunting the ride quality was superior.

 

[Grannyjoans]

323s are pretty rank in wet weather too

I've driven both, 323's have the occasional problem when its wet but nothing near as bad as a 319

 

[driver_m]

I've driven both, 323's have the occasional problem when its wet but nothing near as bad as a 319

I've had the misfortune of having to follow 323s on many occasions in the wet, crawling from red to red. So a 319 must be awful in that case.

 

[js1000]

A few not being used today again. Just sitting outside Longsight just before midday today. A daily occurrence now. You sense it's only a matter of time before they begin to be returned to Porterbrook.

I suspect when we get to 2020/21 and the 37 four-coach 350 Desiros are returned to Porterbrook, they might offer Northern a like-for-like deal so they can exchange the remaining 319s they have four years early. There isn't a great deal of demand for eighty-seven 350 Desiros down south. It would ensure a return on the 350s as they only 10 years old, whereas the 319s are now over 30 years old and you sense the grim reaper of the train world is sharpening his scythe.

As an addendum point, the 350s are far more suited to the longer distance inter-city network of services Northern are aspiring to create, particularly on the Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport with inter-city seating layout, racks for luggage and faster acceleration. At the moment, the 319s as commuter trains on inter-city services aren't cutting it. If they persist with the dated 319s I see very little passenger growth in the North West over the coming decade. If they invest in decent, modern EMUs then patronage will increase.

 

[507 001]

A few not being used today again. Just sitting outside Longsight just before midday today. A daily occurrence now. You sense it's only a matter of time before they begin to be returned to Porterbrook.

I suspect when we get to 2020/21 and the 37 four-coach 350 Desiros are returned to Porterbrook, they might offer Northern a like-for-like deal so they can exchange the remaining 319s they have four years early. There isn't a great deal of demand for eighty-seven 350 Desiros down south. It would ensure a return on the 350s as they only 10 years old, whereas the 319s are now over 30 years old and you sense the grim reaper of the train world is sharpening his scythe.

As an addendum point, the 350s are far more suited to the longer distance inter-city network of services Northern are aspiring to create, particularly on the Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport with inter-city seating layout, racks for luggage and faster acceleration. At the moment, the 319s as commuter trains on inter-city services aren't cutting it. If they persist with the dated 319s I see very little passenger growth in the North West over the coming decade. If they invest in decent, modern EMUs then patronage will increase.

I’m not so sure. As a very limited example, my train to and from work is now considerably busier than it was pre-electrification, and both of those are 319s....

 

[pemma]

I’m not so sure. As a very limited example, my train to and from work is now considerably busier than it was pre-electrification, and both of those are 319s....

Trains on my line are considerably busier than there were a few years ago despite still being mainly 142s and 150s, in fact I'm sure the chance of getting a 156 has decreased. People like to claim electrification and new trains create additional passengers but it's only lines with potential for significant growth which get electrification and/or new trains. I wonder if the Bolton corridor will actually see a decrease in usage post-electrification given it's already seem a huge boom in usage and punctuality and reliability are getting worse.

 

[Greybeard33]

As an addendum point, the 350s are far more suited to the longer distance inter-city network of services Northern are aspiring to create, particularly on the Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport with inter-city seating layout, racks for luggage and faster acceleration. At the moment, the 319s as commuter trains on inter-city services aren't cutting it. If they persist with the dated 319s I see very little passenger growth in the North West over the coming decade. If they invest in decent, modern EMUs then patronage will increase.

Assuming future growth, the 323 has the significant advantage that there are many platforms on the Northern network that are long enough for a 6-car double 323 (6*23.4=140.4m) but not for an 8-car double 350 (8*20.4=163.2m). Some of these platforms would be very difficult/costly to lengthen (especially Salford Crescent), which is presumably one reason why the new 331s have 23m carriages like the 323.

I would rather have a seat in a 6-car 323 than stand in a 4-car 350.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Assuming future growth, the 323 has the significant advantage that there are many platforms on the Northern network that are long enough for a 6-car double 323 (6*23.4=140.4m) but not for an 8-car double 350 (8*20.4=163.2m). Some of these platforms would be very difficult/costly to lengthen (especially Salford Crescent), which is presumably one reason why the new 331s have 23m carriages like the 323.

I would rather have a seat in a 6-car 323 than stand in a 4-car 350.

350s have walk through gangways - SDO can be used.

 

[Greybeard33]

350s have walk through gangways - SDO can be used.

SDO is unsatisfactory at some stations (e.g. Salford Crescent) because the overhanging carriage would foul a junction. Plus the long delay as alighting passengers have to fight their way down a crowded gangway to the next carriage.

 

[swt_passenger]

As an addendum point, the 350s are far more suited to the longer distance inter-city network of services Northern are aspiring to create, particularly on the Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport with inter-city seating layout, racks for luggage and faster acceleration...

The imminently off lease 350/2s are commuter 2+3 layout at the moment though. Are you describing the 350/4s that are going to LM?

 

[ag51ruk]

As an addendum point, the 350s are far more suited to the longer distance inter-city network of services Northern are aspiring to create, particularly on the Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport with inter-city seating layout, racks for luggage and faster acceleration. At the moment, the 319s as commuter trains on inter-city services aren't cutting it. If they persist with the dated 319s I see very little passenger growth in the North West over the coming decade. If they invest in decent, modern EMUs then patronage will increase.

Crewe - Liverpool via Manchester isn't an Intercity service - it's two local stopping services joined together to provide some cross Manchester journey opportunities and avoid the services needing to terminate in Manchester. 319s or 323s are perfectly adequate.

 

[IanXC]

I think many people are forgetting that the current 319 and 323 fleet is sized such as to be able to operate the full electric service via Bolton.

Once this is happening there will surely be a much more usual stock utilisation for these fleets.

 

[js1000]

I’m not so sure. As a very limited example, my train to and from work is now considerably busier than it was pre-electrification, and both of those are 319s....

Patronage in south Manchester is down considerably since the new timetable. I would say 30-40% down. I suspect replacing the swift 323s shuttles from Crewe to Piccadilly with scruffy diesels to go to Liverpool via Warrington turned a lot of passengers off.

My view on the 350s was that Porterbrook will have to decide (assuming no franchise wants the 350s or they have units off lease as they can't re-allocate all of them) between scrapping the 319s or 350s come end of 2021. Logic would suggest they would scrap the older 319s and operate the 350s for the another 10-20 years so they can make a return on them. In that case they'd just exchange Northern's handful or so (after 331s are introduced) of the 319s for the 350s.

Although they are assets on the balance sheet, having spare EMU units in storage artificially decreases leasing costs and puts TOCs in a stronger negotiating position. One option is a writedown, the other is lost revenue thanks to an over supply of EMUs - neither are ideal. The ROSCOs will be aware of the supply and demand problem that now exists for EMUs that didn't 10 years ago. I suspect they'll keep the 323s in storage for a couple of years until 2020 and if there's no takers then they'll be toast as well sadly. As a few others have said on these forums, the 313s to 323s are all in a precarious position in the next 5 years - thanks in some part to Chris Grayling's stalled electrification schemes.

 

[The Ham]

SDO is unsatisfactory at some stations (e.g. Salford Crescent) because the overhanging carriage would foul a junction. Plus the long delay as alighting passengers have to fight their way down a crowded gangway to the next carriage.

Delays at stations due to people being in the wrong bit of the train is rarely a problem as the TOC advertises the fact that you need to be in the correct part and if you can't get off in time well that's tough you should have paid attention.

 

[Thomas6187]

I saw a few 323's stabled on Longsight in the afternoon.
I used to see none at all or one at most.
None have been handed back. They're just not using them all.

Only 10, out of 17, are being used in passenger service a day at the moment. 3 on Hadfields, 3 on Stokes and 1 is stabled at Piccadilly between 08:30 and 17:21 for a peak Macclesfield. You also have 1 which does a Alderley-Piccadilly in the morning, and then goes to Longsight. Also 2 go on to Longsight at 09:09 and come back at 16:23 for the peak Hadfield/Glossop.

Plus, is there still one in Liverpool?

 

[driver_m]

Yeah. There's one doing traction/route training. Passed it yesterday.

 

[geoffk]

Yeah. There's one doing traction/route training. Passed it yesterday.

So is it all 319s to Crewe now, even those via Stockport? If so, they must be able to keep out of the way of Pendolinos but this is more of an issue on the Stoke line.

 

[pemma]

Only 10, out of 17, are being used in passenger service a day at the moment. 3 on Hadfields, 3 on Stokes and 1 is stabled at Piccadilly between 08:30 and 17:21 for a peak Macclesfield. You also have 1 which does a Alderley-Piccadilly in the morning, and then goes to Longsight. Also 2 go on to Longsight at 09:09 and come back at 16:23 for the peak Hadfield/Glossop.

Plus, is there still one in Liverpool?

Doesn't one run the majority of the Hazel Grove shuttles?

 

[geoffk]

Doesn't one run the majority of the Hazel Grove shuttles?

A 319 today, and most days when I've seen it.

 

[driver_m]

So is it all 319s to Crewe now, even those via Stockport? If so, they must be able to keep out of the way of Pendolinos but this is more of an issue on the Stoke line.

I was on about the training train at Liverpool .I don't know about the Crewes but I've not seen many 323s at Crewe recently .

 

[Thomas6187]

Until the various issue about sending 323 between Manchester and Liverpool are sorted, nearly all Hazel Grove and Crewes are currently booked for 319s. The exception are 06:11 Hazel Grove-Piccadilly and 23:38 Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe and return

 

[driver_m]

Until the various issue about sending 323 between Manchester and Liverpool are sorted, nearly all Hazel Grove and Crewes are currently booked for 319s. The exception are 06:11 Hazel Grove-Piccadilly and 23:38 Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe and return

There aren't issues. 323s have worked the route .

 

[notlob.divad]

There aren't issues. 323s have worked the route .

Isn't the major issue(s) the lack of trained staff with the appropriate route and/or traction knowledge.

 

[geoffk]

Until the various issue about sending 323 between Manchester and Liverpool are sorted, nearly all Hazel Grove and Crewes are currently booked for 319s. The exception are 06:11 Hazel Grove-Piccadilly and 23:38 Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe and return

I spent around 100 minutes at Cheadle Hulme today, midday/early afternoon. 323s were only on the Stoke service, all the Crewes being 319s (and on time arriving from Crewe). I didn't see the same unit twice, apart from 323237 which went to Stoke and back, so units may interwork with other services at both Crewe and Piccadilly. There were five 323s at Longsight around 14.00 and another in platform 12 at Piccadilly. I came back on the 13.37 from Cheadle Hulme (ex Stoke) which does not call at Stockport. The driver didn't know why!

 

[1179_Clee2]

News on the WM Trains livery thread

323 217 has gone to Wolverton for New toilet PIS ect ect
due back in the West Mids in January
currently has its seating removed for work to be carried out
but Class 323 EMUs are not staying with WM Trains

More fuel for the rumours of all 323s to go to Northern ????

 

[LOL The Irony]

News on the WM Trains livery thread

323 217 has gone to Wolverton for New toilet PIS ect ect
due back in the West Mids in January
currently has its seating removed for work to be carried out
but Class 323 EMUs are not staying with WM Trains

More fuel for the rumours of all 323s to go to Northern ????

That or another one of Porterbrook's crazy schemes.