Runcorn East to Rochdale

[at.163]

Hi there,

Soon I'll be travelling from Runcorn East to Rochdale. There are three routes suggested by various booking engines:

1. Runcorn East - Piccadilly - Metrolink to Victoria - Rochdale
2. Runcorn East - Earlestown - Victoria - Rochdale
3. Runcorn East - Oxford Road - Salford Crescent - Rochdale

The only ticket shown is the £13.40 Anytime Day Return which only seems to be valid on the first and second routes. This ticket for some reason doesn't include the third route, for which no fares appear to be available.

I don't want to be paying for the trams or walking from Piccadilly to Victoria, or using the free buses either. Which leaves routes 2 and 3. Ideally I'd like to use route 3 as this seems to be the quickest.

So, can I use this £13.40 ticket to go via Salford Crescent or must I change onto the Northern train at Earlestown instead? I'm curious as to why there are no return fares for this route in booking engines.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Trainscanbecheaper.info is telling me that your third route is valid on your ticket and is 2.54m less than shortest route without walks or transfers so yes you may choose to change at Manchester Oxford Road and Salford Crescent.

Edit: Post 5 invalidates the information above.

 

[Searle]

Won't that double back through Deansgate though and therefore ruin the validity?

 

[greatkingrat]

It would be a double back, but as Deansgate and Oxford Road are part of the Manchester routeing group it is permitted.

 

[soil]

Won't that double back through Deansgate though and therefore ruin the validity?

The shortest route is:

Runcorn East
Warrington Bank Quay
Earlestown
Newton-Le-Willows
Patricroft
Eccles
Manchester Victoria
Moston
Mills Hill
Castleton (Manchester)
Rochdale

Route #3 is:

Runcorn East
Warrington Bank Quay
Earlestown
Newton-Le-Willows
Patricroft
Eccles
Deansgate
Manchester Oxford Road
Deansgate
Salford Crescent
Salford Central
Manchester Victoria
Moston
Mills Hill
Castleton (Manchester)
Rochdale

I.e. rather than Eccles - Manchester Victoria direct (4 miles), the route is

Eccles
Deansgate
Manchester Oxford Road (4.25 miles)
Deansgate
Salford Crescent
Salford Central
Manchester Victoria (3.5 miles)

So the route is 0.75 miles too long, and isn't valid

 

[bb21]

There is no mapped route via Earlestown interestingly, so validity via Earlestown is only by virtual of the shortest route, which, as already pointed out, would not allow you to travel via Salford Crescent as that is more than 3 miles longer.

However should you travel via Warrington Central (a mapped route) by trekking across Warrington, you would be permitted to then travel via Salford Crescent as all six of Piccadilly, Victoria, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central, Salford Crescent are members of the Manchester routeing point group.

In reality, should you travel via Earlestown into Oxford Road, and then doubleback through Deansgate and out to Salford Crescent, I doubt anyone would batter an eyelid. It is not strictly-speaking valid for the reasons I gave above, but I would be extremely surprised if you are told "no".

 

[kieron]

One option would be to book the tickets on-line and take the itinerary with you. Northern Rail are happy to suggest changes at Oxford Road and Salford Crescent on the way in, but give Victoria and Newton-le-Willows on the return.

Transport Direct, meanwhile, think that getting a 'bus from Oxford Road to Victoria on the way out would be a lot quicker.

 

[John @ home]

This is an interesting example, which I suspect will have to be added to those discussed at our Fares Workshops.

We are agreed that the shortest route by rail is:

• Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton-Le-Willows, Patricroft, Eccles, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, Moston, Mills Hill, Castleton (Manchester), Rochdale. (NRT: 36.5 miles)

and that route #3, the route the OP wants to use, is:

• Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton-Le-Willows, Patricroft, Eccles, Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, Moston, Mills Hill, Castleton (Manchester), Rochdale. (NRT: 40.25 miles)

soil and bb21 are taking the view that, when using the Shortest Route rule to justify the validity of a ticket, travel within a Station Group (for routeing purposes) must be such that the total distance is not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest distance by scheduled train service from origin to destination. I disagree [1].

My alternative view is that it is Permitted to travel from Runcorn East to the nearest member of Manchester Group, then to use the Group Stations rule for travel within Manchester Group, then to travel from the nearest member of Manchester Group to Rochdale.

Using the National Rail Timetable, from Runcorn East the nearest member of Manchester Group is Salford Central (25.25 miles, calculated by subtraction). But there appear to be no journey opportunities between Runcorn East and Salford Central which do not pass through another member of Manchester Group. Therefore Salford Central is discarded.

Again using the National Rail Timetable, from Runcorn East the next nearest members of Manchester Group are Deansgate and Manchester Victoria (both 26 miles, Deansgate calculated by subtraction).

The nearest member of Manchester Group to Rochdale is Manchester Victoria (10.5 miles).

Therefore, in my opinion, it is Permitted to use the Shortest Route rule and the Group Stations rule to travel:

• Shortest Route rule
  Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton-Le-Willows, Patricroft, Eccles, Deansgate, then
• Group Stations rule
  Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, then
• Shortest Route rule
  Manchester Victoria, Moston, Mills Hill, Castleton (Manchester), Rochdale.

[1] See, for example, South Milford to Thirsk. Permitted routes are by the shortest distance from South Milford to the common Routeing Point (RP) York, then by the shortest distance from the common RP to Thirsk. The shortest route, reversing at Micklefield, is 41.25 miles. East Coast gives 16 journey opportunities each weekday. None reverse at Micklefield. Two reverse at Selby (51 miles). The remaining 14 use the Group Stations rule to reverse at Leeds (60.75 miles).

 

[kieron]

My alternative view is that it is Permitted to travel from Runcorn East to the nearest member of Manchester Group, then to use the Group Stations rule for travel within Manchester Group, then to travel from the nearest member of Manchester Group to Rochdale.

What rule do you feel permits you to travel from Runcorn East to the nearest member of Manchester Group with such a ticket?

The only references to the shortest route in the routeing guide refer to the shortest route for the whole journey or the shortest journey from a station to an associated routeing point.

As Runcorn East is associated with Chester and Warrington, the shortest route from Runcorn East to any Manchester station appears to me to be irrelevant to a Runcorn East-Rochdale ticket.

 

[TOCDriver]

At the end of the day, go by any way you choose. I'm 99% certain you will not get any problems from the guard. We have to be realistic here!

 

[John @ home]

What rule do you feel permits you to travel from Runcorn East to the nearest member of Manchester Group with such a ticket?

Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton-Le-Willows, Patricroft, Eccles, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, Moston, Mills Hill, Castleton (Manchester), Rochdale (NRT: 36.5 miles) is a Permitted Route Runcorn East - Rochdale because it is the shortest route wholly by rail.

Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton-Le-Willows, Patricroft, Eccles, Deansgate, (walk), Manchester Victoria, Moston, Mills Hill, Castleton (Manchester), Rochdale (NRT: 36.5 miles) is a Permitted Route Runcorn East - Rochdale because it is a route of equal distance to the shortest route wholly by rail.

A passenger's right to choose to walk between stations is established by the 1998 correspondence between Clive D W Feather and ATOC.

Clive D W Feather to ATOC, 31 July 1998

Question 9: can a journey involve a walk between stations? For example, map WA includes both Hertford East and Hertford North, on different lines. Would it be legitimate to travel from Cambridge to London via Stevenage, Hertford North, Hertford East, and then Broxbourne? Or, for that matter, via Stansted Airport, Broxbourne, Hertford East, Hertford North, Stevenage, and then Welwyn? Does it matter if the stations involved are in the same group or not?

http://web.archive.org/web/20050211155353/http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn1.html

ATOC to Clive D W Feather, 25 September 1998

Answer 9: Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this).

http://web.archive.org/web/20050217003454/http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn2.html

A walk between stations is counted as zero length.

Instead of walking, travel by rail Deansgate - Manchester Victoria for interchange purposes, including doubling back Deansgate - Manchester Oxford Road, is allowed by the Group Stations rule.

GROUP STATIONS

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

 

[kieron]

Sorry, I interpreted the reference to "the nearest member of Manchester group" as being a reference to some sort of general rule rather than an unusual way of referring to Deansgate (slightly closer to Runcorn East than Victoria according to RJIS).

Would it be fair to summarise your position as follows?

If you can find a route which enters a group at station A and leaves the group at station B and is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest rail-only route between the origin and destination, you can travel to A along the line of that route, travel within the group in any way you please for interchange purposes, eventually reach B, and travel from B to your destination by the remainder of that route.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Soon I'll be travelling from Runcorn East to Rochdale. There are three routes suggested by various booking engines:

1. Runcorn East - Piccadilly - Metrolink to Victoria - Rochdale
2. Runcorn East - Earlestown - Victoria - Rochdale
3. Runcorn East - Oxford Road - Salford Crescent - Rochdale

....

I don't want to be paying for the trams or walking from Piccadilly to Victoria, or using the free buses either. Which leaves routes 2 and 3. Ideally I'd like to use route 3 as this seems to be the quickest.....

The reason, I suspect, route 2 is not the quickest is the connection time at Earlestown (though Newton-le-Willows is a much easier connection with the same trains), most Manchester Bound trains miss the stopper to Victoria by ten minutes, leaving a fifty minute wait at Earlestown/Newton-le-Willows for the next one. Some morning and late afternoon/early evening trains have much better connections. The return, out of Manchester, have a twelve minute connection for most of the day.

The 0659 from Runcorn East would have you in Rochdale at 0819 (changing at Newton-le-Willows and Victoria), fifteen minutes quicker than going via Salford Crescent. The 0731 from Runcorn East would have you in Rochdale at 0919, just ten minutes longer than going via Salford Crescent.

....My alternative view is that it is Permitted to travel from Runcorn East to the nearest member of Manchester Group, then to use the Group Stations rule for travel within Manchester Group, then to travel from the nearest member of Manchester Group to Rochdale.

....

Therefore, in my opinion, it is Permitted to use the Shortest Route rule and the Group Stations rule to travel:

• Shortest Route rule
  Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton-Le-Willows, Patricroft, Eccles, Deansgate, then
• Group Stations rule
  Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, then
• Shortest Route rule
  Manchester Victoria, Moston, Mills Hill, Castleton (Manchester), Rochdale.....

• 
  
  I can't agree with John, the Routeing Guide is quite clear that there is no need to consult it when using the shortest route, and I believe that if you do consult it, you must consult all of it, not pick and choose the bits that best suit your needs. IMO, Runcorn East-Earlestown-Oxford Road-Salford Crescent-Rochdale is not a valid route for a through ticket.

 

[John @ home]

Would it be fair to summarise your position as follows?

If you can find a route which enters a group at station A and leaves the group at station B and is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest rail-only route between the origin and destination, you can travel to A along the line of that route, travel within the group in any way you please for interchange purposes, eventually reach B, and travel from B to your destination by the remainder of that route.

It is difficult to write a general rule in this way for many routeing matters. The condition "subject to any route restriction shown on the ticket" would need to be added.

There are also complications and inconsistencies when the journey needs to enter and leave the same Station Group (for routeing purposes) more than once.

For example, the journey planners show that on a Sunday a £3.70 Shotts - Hamilton Central route Any Permitted Anytime Day Single is valid by the shortest route by rail over which passenger services operate on that day, which enters and leaves Motherwell Group twice.

Contrast this with a £3.30 Stepps - Bridgeton route Any Permitted Anytime Day Single. The journey planners don't show this to be valid by the shortest route by rail, which enters and leaves Glasgow Group twice. But sites based on thetrainline do show it to be valid (and WebTIS sites don't) on a route 2 miles longer than the shortest route by rail, which enters and leaves Glasgow Group three times!

(Stepps, Springburn, Barnhill, Alexandra Parade, Duke St, Bellgrove, High St Glasgow, Glasgow Queen St, Charing Cross Glasgow, Exhibition Centre, Partick, Anderston, Glasgow Central, Argyle St, Bridgeton. Members of Glasgow Group are in bold.)

 

[SickyNicky]

Trainscanbecheaper.info is telling me that your third route is valid on your ticket and is 2.54m less than shortest route without walks or transfers so yes you may choose to change at Manchester Oxford Road and Salford Crescent.

Remember to please be careful with your "via" points when using trainscanbecheaper.info to look up whether a route is permitted.

The 2.54m less than shortest route relies on a change at Warrington. If you feed in the correct via points (in this case Earlestown, Manchester Oxford Road and Salford Crescent), TCBC shows the route is overdistance and not permitted.

After you've clicked on "Is the route I want to take permitted", click on "Show Full Route" to ensure that the route is the one you really want.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

And you wonder why the average Joe gets into trouble with ticketing!!!