Running EMR and LNER trains through the Thameslink Core to Brighton. Good or bad idea?

[philosopher]

Would it be a good idea to run EMR trains from Nottingham or Sheffield or LNER trains through the Thameslink Core to Brighton to provide a direct service from Scotland, the Northeast, Yorkshire and East Midlands to Brighton? EMR and LNER trains could stop at all the Thameslink Core stations and then East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Brighton.

Would this be feasible and if it is would it be well used?

 

[HSTEd]

As things are, this is not very practical given the performance constraints of the core and the rolling stock's relevant characteristics.

I have wondered however whether we will come to regret the likes of Crossrail stock having such low performance (Class 345 is only 90mph, and I don't think there has been a 90mph unit built before then since the Express Sprinter?).

If we had crossrail stock that was faster it opens up interesting possibilities, especially at the west end of the route.

The RER in Paris joins metros and commuter rail and blurs the line between the two, there is no inherent reason you could not blur the lines between high speed rail and a metro if you wanted.

 

[Aictos]

No just no, it's a non starter because the Class 700s were designed for the Core and the Core is very busy as it is already, if you try running LNER and EMR services though the area then dwell times will increase massively as well as journey times for Thameslink passengers as the IC trains will take time boarding and disembarking with their end doors.

It simply is not worth the time or effort to consider, not when you have connections at St Pancras which are accessible to all and closer then the former Kings Cross Thameslink station.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

As far as I'm aware, the answer will be "no capacity south of Three Bridges".

 

[JonathanH]

Would it be a good idea to run EMR trains from Nottingham or Sheffield or LNER trains through the Thameslink Core to Brighton to provide a direct service from Scotland, the Northeast, Yorkshire and East Midlands to Brighton? EMR and LNER trains could stop at all the Thameslink Core stations and then East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Brighton.

No, the rolling stock needed on the south side of London is not the same as that needed on long distance services further north.

More to the point, the current arrangements offer a fairly simple change at Kings Cross / St Pancras. Even if you can run a through train to Brighton, what about the other destinations?

If we had crossrail stock that was faster it opens up interesting possibilities, especially at the west end of the route.

No it wouldn't. Crossrail links two suburban networks.

As far as I'm aware, the answer will be "no capacity south of Three Bridges".

Or north of Three Bridges either

 

[HSTEd]

No it wouldn't. Crossrail links two suburban networks.

The French experience demonstrates that the meaning of "suburban" is open to debate.
Indeed distances considered to be suburban commuter railways have been expanding since the dawn of the railway era.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Another issue: north of the Thameslink core is 25 kV 50 Hz AC OHLE electrified. South of the Thameslink core is 750 V DC Third rail electrified. So unless you're happy spending a lot of money on dual voltage units (and potentially bi-mode dual voltage units if you go north of Market Harborough), I sadly cannot see such service happening anytime soon.

Also, if you are starting services from Scotland, wouldn't it make more sense if your proposed service was operated by Cross Country instead?

 

[philosopher]

No, the rolling stock needed on the south side of London is not the same as that needed on long distance services further north.

More to the point, the current arrangements offer a fairly simple change at Kings Cross / St Pancras. Even if you can run a through train to Brighton, what about the other destinations?

No it wouldn't. Crossrail links two suburban networks.

Or north of Three Bridges either

Changing from Kings Cross to St Pancras with luggage could be reasonably annoying. However such passengers could alternatively change onto Thameslink at Stevenage if their train stops at Stevenage.

 

[NSEFAN]

With how the railway is set up at the moment, the answer is almost certainly "no".

Given unlimited money, perhaps there could be better segregation of suburban and intercity services to allow such a thing to happen. If the through services on the core serve more and more destinations, this increases the chance of knock-on delays propagating throughout the country (a delay in Edinburgh causing problems on the Brighton mainline, for example) , unless there is enough infrastructure to prevent services from delaying one another.

 

[Neptune]

Is this just another case of trying to run a direct train from somewhere to anywhere just for the sake of it?

The Thameslink core is designed to be high frequency and efficient with high capacity trains that can load/unload quickly right down to automatic door operation. Anything else mixing with that would ruin the timetable and reduce capacity. Have you seen how long it takes to load/unload an IC train at Kings Cross and St Pancras?

I’ve changed onto TL at KGX with luggage and kids before and not even thought ‘I wish it was a through train’. One of the inevitabilities of long distance train travel is changing trains and because London was built with multiple terminals around the edges of the city (like Paris) you can’t get away with it unless you are lucky enough to live on the route of a cross city service and are travelling to a destination at the other end of the same line.

 

[JonathanH]

Have you seen how long it takes to load/unload an IC train at Kings Cross and St Pancras?

This is exactly the point - a load of people come from all over London and the South East to the London Intercity Terminals turning up in advance of their train to be in position to board them and have time to settle before they depart. Concentrating through services on one route through London and one place on the south side could never reflect the actual pattern of demand for those services currently.

 

[Failed Unit]

Inter-city used to run cross London services - they were not very popular.

We had one from the north --> Birmingham - Watford - Kensington Olympia - Brighton.

This later had a little detour via Reading.

Didn't really have much demand. I suspect now such a service may have more demand, but it would almost certainly not be IC. But I suspect Birmingham - Clapham junction may be useful for connections to other placed. Going back to the point in question, A Cross platform connection at Stevenage covers a lot of the demand for this route. I know people prefer direct but it does serve this need well. For MML maybe one day they might start a service further north but not sure if Thameslink ever went to Leicester if the cross London Traffic would be that great.

 

[JonathanH]

For MML maybe one day they might start a service further north but not sure if Thameslink ever went to Leicester if the cross London Traffic would be that great.

Thameslink is not going to Leicester. Even if it did, you'd be talking about adding nearly an hour to the journey to change at Leicester rather than St Pancras.

The EMR and Thameslink platforms are literally above one another at St Pancras. It really isn't difficult to change trains there.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thameslink is not going to Leicester. Even if it did, you'd be talking about adding nearly an hour to the journey to change at Leicester rather than St Pancras.

The EMR and Thameslink platforms are literally above one another at St Pancras. It really isn't difficult to change trains there.

So you know that for certain do you? Never ever? You know exactly what trains are going to be running in 50 years time? - 365s running in Scotland? 180s on Northern local services (2 things that were dismissed as never going to happen) I never expected LNER to go to Lincoln or Cleethorpes - but it is. Never expect MML services to Lincoln - But they are.....

As for you last point are you disabled? Because if you are your "It really isn't difficult to change trains" may not be true. I would rather change at Peterborough (another place we wouldn't have expected on Thameslink in 1986) then London.

 

[Ianno87]

So you know that for certain do you? Never ever? You know exactly what trains are going to be running in 50 years time? - 365s running in Scotland? I never expected LNER to go to Lincoln or Cleethorpes - but it is. Never expect MML services to Lincoln - But they are.....

Very few people are going to sit on a Slow Thameslink trains all the way from Leicester purely for the convenience of a direct train.

(Stand by for the "what about my granny with heavy luggage?" argument in 5,4,3,...)

 

[Failed Unit]

Very few people are going to sit on a Slow Thameslink trains all the way from Leicester purely for the convenience of a direct train.

(Stand by for the "what about my granny with heavy luggage?" argument in 5,4,3,...)

But I didn't say that it would if you read my post I said the traffic would not be that great.... Just as I doubt people travel from Peterborough - Gatwick Airport on the same train today.

 

[JonathanH]

As for you last point are you disabled? Because if you are your "It really isn't difficult to change trains" may not be true. I would rather change at Peterborough (another place we wouldn't have expected on Thameslink in 1986) then London.

St Pancras has lifts, it has lots of staff, it has level boarding to the Thameslink trains. The disabled access to the Thameslink units it right by the door - there is level access because all the trains are formed of the same type of unit. In the other direction, there is plenty of time to board the EMR train, again with assistance. It is hard to imagine a better station for a less able person to change at.

The suggestion was that the stations south of St Pancras served by these through trains were East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Brighton. How does someone who is less able get to any of the other stations in London or south of the London Terminals?

 

[Aictos]

Changing from Kings Cross to St Pancras with luggage could be reasonably annoying. However such passengers could alternatively change onto Thameslink at Stevenage if their train stops at Stevenage.

However as Kings Cross and St Pancras are right next to each other, the connection there isn't that bad even with luggage and probably would be faster staying on the LNER (used as a example) to Kings Cross then walking across the road to St Pancras instead of changing at Stevenage and getting a connecting Thameslink.

In any case, it isn't a hardship as the connection between St Pancras and Kings Cross is a lot better then the other London Terminals.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn’t the usual answer that for any individual service from the north east via the ECML, about 90% are going somewhere in central London by tube, bus, or walk, and out of the rest, they split into all possible directions, including doubling back north by rail, and many are using routes out of Waterloo, Paddington, or Liverpool St anyway. So the few passengers you help with your direct train are vastly outnumbered by the people who would still want to get off at Kings Cross.

I think someone linked to a long winded survey a few years ago that had percentage figures for all the main termini, but crossing diametrically and heading out of London again was a very small figure.

Presumably the MML is slightly different for those already using Thameslink, but even then hasn’t it always been said that comparatively few passengers are still on the train south of Elephant or London Bridge?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bad idea. Thameslink works with such intensive operation because it's simple and has high capacity, fast boarding units. You'd be turning it into something rather more like Castlefield.

 

[1D53]

Aside from the dwell issues the performance risk would be a nightmare. I wouldn't fancy a LNER from all the way from Inverness being reliably bang on time at Canal Tunnels to fit into its 2 minute headway through the Core. It's hard enough to do it from Cambridge and Peterborough with regulation policies favouring you all the way.

 

[Failed Unit]

Isn’t the usual answer that for any individual service from the north east via the ECML, about 90% are going somewhere in central London by tube, bus, or walk, and out of the rest, they split into all possible directions, including doubling back north by rail, and many are using routes out of Waterloo, Paddington, or Liverpool St anyway. So the few passengers you help with your direct train are vastly outnumbered by the people who would still want to get off at Kings Cross.

I think someone linked to a long winded survey a few years ago that had percentage figures for all the main termini, but crossing diametrically and heading out of London again was a very small figure.

Presumably the MML is slightly different for those already using Thameslink, but even then hasn’t it always been said that comparatively few passengers are still on the train south of Elephant or London Bridge?

Ironically the stop at Stevenage is getting a lot of people changing there to avoid the underground where applicable. People like the cross platform connection. Clearly not in large enough numbers to run the IC train through. But people from Lincoln like the fact they can get to Gatwick Airport with a cross platform change. (Despite what others may think, they prefer this to crossing the road and using St Pancras).

 

[D365]

I have wondered however whether we will come to regret the likes of Crossrail stock having such low performance (Class 345 is only 90mph, and I don't think there has been a 90mph unit built before then since the Express Sprinter?).

Top speed is the least of Crossrail’s problems at the moment. For the moment, they have dozens of units sitting around doing nothing…

 

[XAM2175]

You'd be turning it into something rather more like Castlefield.

Great opportunity for a "We need to talk about Thameslink again" thread, though!

 

[yorksrob]

I have suggested that there should be a budget option up the ECML to Yorkshire, similarly to LNWR on the West coast.

Extend a Brighton service from Peterborough to Leeds or York and you kill two birds with one stone !

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I have suggested that there should be a budget option up the ECML to Yorkshire, similarly to LNWR on the West coast.

Extend a Brighton service from Peterborough to Leeds or York and you kill two birds with one stone !

And thus make the most unreliable service ever. It would get constantly get cut short as well due to delays and ruin the BML timetable.

I get the thought, but would not be a good idea.

 

[Failed Unit]

WAGN did propose London - Doncaster. Never happened for paths. But it did provide a local service. Something that didn’t exist under GNER with journeys from Newark - Grantham quicker via Nottingham.

I am sure people would use it if they offer mega cheap fares. (Just not enough to make a profi)

 

[David Goddard]

I have wondered however whether we will come to regret the likes of Crossrail stock having such low performance (Class 345 is only 90mph, and I don't think there has been a 90mph unit built before then since the Express Sprinter?).

Since the Express Sprinter we have had class 334 built for 90mph, and classes 376 & 378 for at just 75mph.

 

[RobShipway]

Inter-city used to run cross London services - they were not very popular.

We had one from the north --> Birmingham - Watford - Kensington Olympia - Brighton.

This later had a little detour via Reading.

Didn't really have much demand. I suspect now such a service may have more demand, but it would almost certainly not be IC. But I suspect Birmingham - Clapham junction may be useful for connections to other placed. Going back to the point in question, A Cross platform connection at Stevenage covers a lot of the demand for this route. I know people prefer direct but it does serve this need well. For MML maybe one day they might start a service further north but not sure if Thameslink ever went to Leicester if the cross London Traffic would be that great.

The above services started in the early 1980's. For myself and my parents it was great as we live not far from Brighton, but had relatives that we had that lived in the Midlands. It would mean that we did not have the hassle of travelling into London Victoria, then getting the Victoria underground line to Euston, to travel up to Birmingham New Street.

The closest you have now, is the East Croydon to Milton Keynes services. If there was the paths I would have this service start in Brighton and finish at Rugby, which is what the service started off being in the first place, I believe after Cross Country stopped running services. The only problem I think you may have though with running to Rugby is that not all Avanti West Cost services stop there, so again if there was paths maybe run the train into Birmingham International. But that gives you the problem if people want to travel to Lichfield and they cannot get on to a services from Rugby that takes them to Lichfield Trent Valley!

Having travelled on the IC/XC trains both via Kensington Olympia - Watford and also Kensington Olympia - North Pole Junction on to the GWML to head towards Reading, the trains where not much used prior to getting to Kensington Olympia. But the trains where not publicised to a great degree by British Rail. In later years when IC got taken over by Virgin, the trains would go to Redhill, then via Guildford to Reading which did take a fair bit of time, even if the Voyagers where able to keep to the 90mph speed limit on the most part of that route.

 

[yorksrob]

And thus make the most unreliable service ever. It would get constantly get cut short as well due to delays and ruin the BML timetable.

I get the thought, but would not be a good idea.

I would have thought that the BML and Thameslink core would be more of a eisk to the ECML timetable. However, the ECML has plenty of loops.