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Running trains empty instead of express to get trains in position to recover service after incident

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TurbostarFan

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Hello, I would like to know why a lot of trains are cancelled after a fatality and run ECS instead of in passenger service even after the body is removed? Whilst I can understand the actual train involved (along with any unit coupled to it) being cancelled and run ECS, I think that running a perfectly good train as ECS and cancelling the service is a waste of resources and shouldn't happen.
 
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bionic

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Crews displaced. Service up the spout. Attempting to recover and get units in the right place for the peak or next day service.
 

TheEdge

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Normally because they are out of position and need to be moved ASAP to a location on the network when they can resume their booked diagram or a passenger train on time. Often there can also be various crewing issues.
 

berneyarms

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Often the trains and the crews will be completely out of position in terms of where they ought to be and therefore need to reposition to get the service back on track - that’s one reason. Otherwise the schedule would never return to normal.
 

gray1404

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I am glad Merseyrail have at least started to run their trains limited stop (calling at main stations) or indeed just though to the destination in the event of disruption or severe delay. In the past they would just turf everyone out at the next station and run through to the end of the line empty. At least the current approach doesn't leave everyone at a loose end and the train running behind doesn't have quite as many passenger to pick up.

Although much to my annoyance they have a habit of running a train through from Liverpool Central to Hunts Cross without considering those with long distance connections at Liverpool South Parkway - I think it would even make better sense to turn a train back there.
 

Foxcote

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The loco/unit will require a fitters inspection for fitness to run and cleaning to remove blood etc.
 

TurbostarFan

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The loco/unit will require a fitters inspection for fitness to run and cleaning to remove blood etc.
I agree with you on that, I will clarify that I did mean all trains in the area and not just the one involved in the fatality. Not to mention the fact that the driver (and possibly the guard and traincrew unless it's a DOO service) might not be in a fit state to continue operating the train at all.
 
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TurbostarFan

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Often the trains and the crews will be completely out of position in terms of where they ought to be and therefore need to reposition to get the service back on track - that’s one reason. Otherwise the schedule would never return to normal.
What if the service in question is a DOO service, it's nearly the time of the last train and all of the passengers have been turfed out and put onto rail replacement buses?
 

DarloRich

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Hello, I would like to know why a lot of trains are cancelled after a fatality and run ECS instead of in passenger service even after the body is removed? Whilst I can understand the actual train involved (along with any unit coupled to it) being cancelled and run ECS, I think that running a perfectly good train as ECS and cancelling the service is a waste of resources and shouldn't happen.

So how do you get the train and driver in the right place to recover some semblance of normal service?
 

TurbostarFan

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So how do you get the train and driver in the right place to recover some semblance of normal service?
Fair point, I guess in a lot of scenarios that would require running trains as ECS instead of in normal passenger service. However I'd imagine that in some scenarios you could just run those trains as express services.
 

DarloRich

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Fair point, I guess in a lot of scenarios that would require running trains as ECS instead of in normal passenger service. However I'd imagine that in some scenarios you could just run those trains as express services.

Hard if the driver is at point a and the gaurd at point f!
 

bionic

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What if you could run the train as a DOO service? Especially if it is normally a DOO service anyway! For example Great Northern trains are always DOO.

You can't just run guarded trains as DOO. It doesn't work like that. If you could they would be DOO already... And that's a whole other tin of worms.
 

TurbostarFan

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You can't just run guarded trains as DOO. It doesn't work like that. If you could they would be DOO already... And that's a whole other tin of worms.
Fair point, how about if the train is normally a DOO service anyway?
 

Dren Ahmeti

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You can't just run guarded trains as DOO. It doesn't work like that. If you could they would be DOO already... And that's a whole other tin of worms.
Haven’t some SWR services been doing that recently, or it’s been proposed in times of severe disruption?
 

Dieseldriver

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I agree with you on that, I will clarify that I did mean all trains in the area and not just the one involved in the fatality. Not to mention the fact that the driver (and possibly the guard and traincrew unless it's a DOO service) might not be in a fit state to continue operating the train in passenger service so might decide to run the train as an ECS instead.
If a Driver is involved in a fatality it is extremely unlikely that they would be driving the train afterwards at all, ECS or in passenger service.
 

bionic

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Fair point, how about if the train is normally a DOO service anyway?

Only difference is if you have a driver and a train then it could run, but they'll need to be looking at how to get that driver and unit back to where they need to be ASAP otherwise they won't be able to recover the service.
 

yorkie

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Fair point, how about if the train is normally a DOO service anyway?
If it's not been involved in the incident I can't think why it should run ECS in that case. If you have a particular service in mind, someone might be able to find out if there was a reason.
 

a_c_skinner

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Isn't the simple truth that this is an awful thing to happen, every time is different and people just do their best?
I met a driver who'd had someone kill themselves under his train. He never drove again.
 

yorkie

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The OP is asking specifically about trains not involved in the incident.

My understanding is that some trains have to run 'express' to recover the service, but sometimes they run ECS rather than as an express passenger.

I'm not sure why fatalities were mentioned as the same thing could happen after any lengthy delay.

I was on a train which skipped loads of stations (in service) to make up time only yesterday.
 

theking

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Because why would you run a limited stop service and risk the train getting delayed on route then you have a displaced train delaying others behind it.

Get the trains ecs out of the way and then try and recover with ontime services.

It's not as if they run the trains ecs and give them hours at the terminal, some will get bare minimum turnaround time.

Control have to think of the bigger picture.
 

Sirius

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In Scotrail-land this is common because “skip stopping” was complained about by passengers across the network and that is now a performance measure they are compared against.

So now they just cancel after a point and run empty to the destination anyway.

Meaning we are getting no service at all in disruption because people who don’t understand the railways decided to interfere.
 

js1000

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In Scotrail-land this is common because “skip stopping” was complained about by passengers across the network and that is now a performance measure they are compared against.

So now they just cancel after a point and run empty to the destination anyway.

Meaning we are getting no service at all in disruption because people who don’t understand the railways decided to interfere.
Similar problem on the Styal Line to Manchester Airport and Transpennine services east of Manchester. Commuter stations are a lottery as to whether it will skip the stop to make up lost time. I think TOCs have misjudged how much this has turned bread and butter commuters against travelling to work on the train. Patronage is falling sharply and the balance sheets will soon reflect this.
 

GW43125

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What does meeting himself coming back mean? I can understand that he needs to avoid missing his relief point though!
I believe it's when a driver meets a train coming the other way that he/she is supposed to be driving.
 

Ken H

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i was to catch a late running Brum Snow hill - Worcester train once. The made it fast to Foregate Street. Think it departed back to Brum on time. Managed badly at Snow Hill - garbled announcement on the train with people getting off and on a again a lot. Need someone to walk through the train and make sure each passenger understands. Some poor bloke had an unexpected trip to Worcester to get to Cradeley Heath
 

TurbostarFan

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If a Driver is involved in a fatality it is extremely unlikely that they would be driving the train afterwards at all, ECS or in passenger service.
Correct, the driver will have to stay where he is and await relief from another driver.

The OP is asking specifically about trains not involved in the incident.

My understanding is that some trains have to run 'express' to recover the service, but sometimes they run ECS rather than as an express passenger.

I'm not sure why fatalities were mentioned as the same thing could happen after any lengthy delay.

I was on a train which skipped loads of stations (in service) to make up time only yesterday.

Thanks for clarifying, apologises if I wasn't clear enough. My point is that a fatality could be cited as a reason that the train is being run ECS with the passengers being turfed out of the train and then eventually put onto buses instead.

I believe it's when a driver meets a train coming the other way that he/she is supposed to be driving.
Thank you for explaining, I now understand what the other poster meant.

Because why would you run a limited stop service and risk the train getting delayed on route then you have a displaced train delaying others behind it.

Get the trains ecs out of the way and then try and recover with ontime services.

It's not as if they run the trains ecs and give them hours at the terminal, some will get bare minimum turnaround time.

Control have to think of the bigger picture.

Fair point, the reason I would want to run the train as an express service is because if it is run ECS there will be loads of passengers on the platform rather annoyed as to why they are having to wait for a rail replacement bus to turn up when a perfectly good train has just left the platform without them. However you also raise a good point, my counter to that is what if the train is a late night service with the last train departing shortly anyway?
 
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