Russian railway gauge?

[Howardh]

been watching a couple of youtube films about the interior of Russian commuter trains around Moscow, and noticed the seats were 3 - 3 with a middle corridor (obvs).

Research shows the gauge to be 5' but wondered if any experts on here can fill me in - is a gauge (allowing 3 - 3) standard in Russia? What about high speed lines, and cross-border trains?

I assume that with Russia being a darned big country then there will be many variations throughout the land. But one point struck me, I have often wondered if our trains would be any more comfortable with a wider gauge...but apparently not, all that would happen is they squeeze more seats in and first-class would be 2 - 2 instead of 2 - 1!!

 

[Chris999999]

been watching a couple of youtube films about the interior of Russian commuter trains around Moscow, and noticed the seats were 3 - 3 with a middle corridor (obvs).

Research shows the gauge to be 5' but wondered if any experts on here can fill me in - is a gauge (allowing 3 - 3) standard in Russia? What about high speed lines, and cross-border trains?

I assume that with Russia being a darned big country then there will be many variations throughout the land. But one point struck me, I have often wondered if our trains would be any more comfortable with a wider gauge...but apparently not, all that would happen is they squeeze more seats in and first-class would be 2 - 2 instead of 2 - 1!!

It is not so much about how far apart the wheels are, but the loading gauge which determines how wide the body can be. Most European railways have the same wheel gauge as the UK but their loading gauges are significantly larger, enabling them to provide more space for passengers (or as you suggest more seats).

 

[Howardh]

It is not so much about how far apart the wheels are, but the loading gauge which determines how wide the body can be. Most European railways have the same wheel gauge as the UK but their loading gauges are significantly larger, enabling them to provide more space for passengers (or as you suggest more seats).

In theory - assuming the tracks were wide enough for a train coming the other way (!) how wide could a carriage be with standard gauge (UK) track?

 

[Ash Bridge]

In theory - assuming the tracks were wide enough for a train coming the other way (!) how wide could a carriage be with standard gauge (UK) track?

I think the Great Western Railway's dreadnought coaches were some of the widest at around 2.90m/9ft 6ins wide.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe the railways in South Africa have a larger loading gauge than the UK despite having a smaller track gauge. The risk of toppling over is actually quite small, except perhaps in places with very high winds.

 

[axlecounter]

Even the RhB has a larger loading gauge than the UK!

 

[squizzler]

If you want to be really pedantic the Russian gauge has not been 5' (1524mm) for some years because they redefined it in metric as 1520mm.

The maximum dimensions on various track gauges are given in the Wikipedia article on loading gauge. Note that the Euro tunnel Shuttle trailers are 4.1m wide! Double stack container trains can be 6.15m tall.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Wheel gauge in Russia is 1520mm, the crossborder traffic into Finland doesn't really have any issues (well probably some minor ones) as we have a track gauge of 1524mm.

Loading gauge...no idea, huge it seems

t.

Ian

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Have a look one day at VR's double deck sleeping cars to show what they manage to fit in the Finnish loading gauge: not only wide but high enough to stand comfortably up on both decks. It's really sideways windspeed that becomes the issue on 'how big can it be', once the 'springiness' of the bogie + track is satisfactorily allowed for in safety terms Strong sidewinds can topple trains over (a particular dramatic example occurred on the metre gauge Appenzeller Bahn system a few years back, with a strong wind in a deep mountain valley completely throwing the coach off the track and on to neighbouring land!)

 

[edwin_m]

There was also a train blown off a viaduct on the narrow gauge lines in NW Ireland.

The overturning risk depends on a range of factors including train height, speed, wind strength, centre of gravity position, curvature, cant and track gauge. Train width isn't directly a factor, although a wider train can be unbalanced to a greater degree which would also increase the tendency to overturn (or reduce it if unbalanced the other way). Narrow gauge trains tend to be lower than standard gauge ones, which reduces the area for the wind to act on as well as lowering the centre of gravity.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Have a look one day at VR's double deck sleeping cars to show what they manage to fit in the Finnish loading gauge: not only wide but high enough to stand comfortably up on both decks.

To keep vaguely on topic, I think the new Russian double deck sleeping cars are broadly the same in design as the Finnish ones.

According to wikipedia ( ) they are 26.4m long, 3.2m wide and 5.2m high on a track gauge of 1524mm. More knowledgeable people can figure out Finnish guaging from there. Russia or more or less the same I think.

Here's a picture of the upper deck sleeping compartment: http://www.seisake.net/kuva.php?id=1331&kat=icvaunut&s=0

And VR has a page all about these:
https://www.vr.fi/cs/vr/en/night-and-car-carrier-trains

Click on the "See passenger car album" button and you get descriptions of the 5 wagon types used (specifically the Edm Sleeping car)

t.

Ian

 

[JonasB]

In theory - assuming the tracks were wide enough for a train coming the other way (!) how wide could a carriage be with standard gauge (UK) track?

The widest trains currently used in Sweden are 3.45 m wide. The largest loading gauge used is 3.6 m wide and 4.83 m high. Can't see any reason why it wouldn't work in the UK.

 

[furnessvale]

The widest trains currently used in Sweden are 3.45 m wide. The largest loading gauge used is 3.6 m wide and 4.83 m high. Can't see any reason why it wouldn't work in the UK.

Several thousand bridges, tunnels and platforms for starters!

 

[JonasB]

Several thousand bridges, tunnels and platforms for starters!

The question was "In theory - assuming the tracks were wide enough for a train coming the other way (!) how wide could a carriage be with standard gauge (UK) track?"

I'm well aware that it will require upgrading the current rail network, something that can be done, but will probably be expensive.

However, IMHO, the UK would benefit from having a wider loading gauge and that should be the long term goal.

 

[Howardh]

The question was "In theory - assuming the tracks were wide enough for a train coming the other way (!) how wide could a carriage be with standard gauge (UK) track?"

I'm well aware that it will require upgrading the current rail network, something that can be done, but will probably be expensive.

However, IMHO, the UK would benefit from having a wider loading gauge and that should be the long term goal.

If HS2 was over completely new ground, would there be a reason for it NOT to be wider gauge? As I see it today it appears some will be on the current track, so widening track and infrastructure adds even more to the cost, and would prevent ordinary stock running unless there was a third/fourth rail.

Is that possible, to have two gauges in the same line?

 

[AM9]

If HS2 was over completely new ground, would there be a reason for it NOT to be wider gauge? As I see it today it appears some will be on the current track, so widening track and infrastructure adds even more to the cost, and would prevent ordinary stock running unless there was a third/fourth rail.

Is that possible, to have two gauges in the same line?

Yes, the GWR had dual gauge track before the great gauge conversion. There are plenty of countries where standard gauge and narrow gauge run ove common track for short distances.

 

[edwin_m]

If HS2 was over completely new ground, would there be a reason for it NOT to be wider gauge? As I see it today it appears some will be on the current track, so widening track and infrastructure adds even more to the cost, and would prevent ordinary stock running unless there was a third/fourth rail.

Is that possible, to have two gauges in the same line?

If you're referring to loading gauge then yes, Network Rail has about six loading gauges for freight. However a European-gauge train can't pass a UK standard platform as it is too close to the track. So any station on a European-gauge line where UK-gauge trains are to stop needs something special such as platform loops or trains with extending gap fillers.

If you're referring to track gauge, there is no reason why it shouldn't be wider but equally no real reason why it should. Trains have been tested on standard gauge at well over the normal maximum speeds and there is no concern about stabiliy. A wider track gauge would make the track and the trains more expensive for no real benefit. More passengers could be packed into a wider train, but unless it was so wide that it had two aisles this would involve 2+3 or 3+3 seating which isn't popular.

 

[eddp]

If HS2 was over completely new ground, would there be a reason for it NOT to be wider gauge? As I see it today it appears some will be on the current track, so widening track and infrastructure adds even more to the cost, and would prevent ordinary stock running unless there was a third/fourth rail.

Is that possible, to have two gauges in the same line?

Spain is currently laying standard gauge track along parts of the Iberian gauge (1668mm) Mediterranean corridor between the French border and Valencia, mainly for freight to travel from the ports of Valencia, Tarragona and Barcelona to France and the rest of the European network, but it will also be used by standard gauge high-speed trains (AVEs) to provide a service between Castelló de la Plana and Madrid via Valencia. The line from Huesca to Zaragoza is also dual-gauge to allow AVEs between Huesca and Madrid. Interestingly this line had to be re-electrified (from 3kV DC to 25kV AC) for the AVEs, meaning that the recently electrified regional trains had to go back to being operated by diesels.

There's a photo at https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vía_de_ancho_mixto#/media/File:TU_100427r05b.jpg.

 

[Taunton]

If you're referring to track gauge, there is no reason why it shouldn't be wider but equally no real reason why it should.

The BART system in San Francisco did everything different, and the track gauge of 5'6" has been a complete nuisance. Overall vehicle size is "normal", so there was no technical reason for the enlarged track gauge.

Standard maintenance vehicles, obtained from USA contractors, are unusable, so specialist maintenance vehicles of all sorts have to be owned by BART. Likewise standard track components from manufacturers, even the sleepers (ties) have to be specially made rather than ordered from stock. Standard manufacturers' car designs are likewise, so they all have to be custom designed as well. Secondhand or trial vehicles are impractical.

 

[furnessvale]

The BART system in San Francisco did everything different, and the track gauge of 5'6" has been a complete nuisance. Overall vehicle size is "normal", so there was no technical reason for the enlarged track gauge.

Standard maintenance vehicles, obtained from USA contractors, are unusable, so specialist maintenance vehicles of all sorts have to be owned by BART. Likewise standard track components from manufacturers, even the sleepers (ties) have to be specially made rather than ordered from stock. Standard manufacturers' car designs are likewise, so they all have to be custom designed as well. Secondhand or trial vehicles are impractical.

History is littered with interference from people trying to reinvent the (railway) wheel. From the monorail proposal that killed off the Manchester Picc-Vic tunnel, to having APT designed by aircraft engineers, it normally ends in tears.

 

[edwin_m]

BART also has cylindrical instead of coned wheel treads, presumably because the people that designed it didn't understand the fundamentals of wheel-rail contact. This results in a lot more flange contact than is necessary, causing more noise and wear.