RZD / РЖД international routes - UK one day?

[jamesontheroad]

RZD operate a number of long-distance international sleeper trains between Moscow and cities in western Europe... these include Moscow – Berlin – Paris; Moscow - Milan - Nice. These appear to be extremely popular with wealthy middle and upper-class Russian tourists.

Let us - for a moment - set aside all recent events related to diplomatic relations between the UK and Russia. London is estimated to be home to 150,000 Russian expats. Tourism and business brings tends of thousands more every year.

After the Nighstar debacle, sleeper trains through the Channel Tunnel were put on hold. I recall reading somewhere that the carriages built for that project had a number of specific safety features to comply with the protocols of the Channel Tunnel.

Given RZD's investment in new carriages for the routes between Russia, Germany, France, Austria and Italy... technically, could these ever be adapted for operation through the Channel Tunnel?

 

[DavidGrain]

My experience of travelling on sleeper trains on Russian gauge is that the bunks were three high. These would fit through the Channel tunnel. I am assuming that they would fit HS1 but is there still a requirement that passenger trains through the tunnel have to fit British gauge? or has that been relaxed now?

 

[rf_ioliver]

Well, given the current political climate they would be well used by diplomats leaving the UK and maybe some of those living in London might be somewhat reluctant to travel "home"...

Theoretically possible, but even with dedicated stock such as the ICE, it has taken a long time to get those certified for the Channel Tunnel.

One thing that does come to mind is the routing (and this effects the size of the wagons), would they use HS1 and if so, how would 160kmh/200kmh stock fit in with the 300kmh Eurostar trains (this can be extended to other LGV lines in France, eg: Moscow-Berlin-Paris-London could take in the German lines, LGV est, LGV nord etc - I have no idea of their routing BTW). I guess they'd have to be timed at night over these lines, which might be a problem for LGV maintenance for a start...

t.

Ian

 

[edwin_m]

My experience of travelling on sleeper trains on Russian gauge is that the bunks were three high. These would fit through the Channel tunnel. I am assuming that they would fit HS1 but is there still a requirement that passenger trains through the tunnel have to fit British gauge? or has that been relaxed now?

I've never heard of any such requirement but if it ever applied before it certainly doesn't apply now, as the 374s are UIC gauge.

I guess a Continental gauge sleeper could terminate at Ashford with onward travel on domestic trains, as the track there has been re-aligned to allow UIC gauge at the international platforms. But as with most Tunnel-related proposals it is snookered by the need to have security and UK passport control at all boarding points ... and tipping everyone out for scanning and re-boarding at Lille would be even less popular on a sleeper than on a day train.

 

[DavidGrain]

I've never heard of any such requirement but if it ever applied before it certainly doesn't apply now, as the 374s are UIC gauge.

The original Eurostars had to fit to British Gauge and operate on third rail when running between the tunnel portal and Waterloo. It was because they were in effect cut down TGVs that so many failed in the tunnel from snow ingress many years ago.

 

[DPQ]

I can't believe it... a non-spam Russian language post...

(Mods please feel free to delete this)

 

[edwin_m]

The original Eurostars had to fit to British Gauge and operate on third rail when running between the tunnel portal and Waterloo. It was because they were in effect cut down TGVs that so many failed in the tunnel from snow ingress many years ago.

Indeed, but there was no rule that I'm aware of that passenger trains through the Tunnel itself had to be British loading gauge. The Eurostar HGV shuttles include a crew coach based on a UIC Gauge design, and the shuttles themselves are far bigger than UIC gauge.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are only two RZD sleeper trains from Moscow to western Europe, each running once a week.
One runs to Paris (from Berlin via Frankfurt and Strasbourg), and the other to Nice (from Warsaw via Vienna, Milan and Genoa).
Traffic has been declining since the worsening relations with the west and frequency has been reduced.
To run to London seems an unlikely venture commercially, and the stock would need all the necessary fire and evacuation facilities to be certified for the Tunnel.
It would have to be class 92-hauled from Calais, and maybe run via Köln and Brussels (maybe not on HS lines in Belgium/France).
There would have to be a westbound immigration check somewhere (Brussels?).
Journey time would be about 32 hours (night-day-night). Overnight bogie change at Brest.
Not competitive with airlines.

 

[duesselmartin]

There are only two RZD sleeper trains from Moscow to western Europe, each running once a week.
One runs to Paris (from Berlin via Frankfurt and Strasbourg), and the other to Nice (from Warsaw via Vienna, Milan and Genoa).
Traffic has been declining since the worsening relations with the west and frequency has been reduced.
To run to London seems an unlikely venture commercially, and the stock would need all the necessary fire and evacuation facilities to be certified for the Tunnel.
It would have to be class 92-hauled from Calais, and maybe run via Köln and Brussels (maybe not on HS lines in Belgium/France).
There would have to be a westbound immigration check somewhere (Brussels?).
Journey time would be about 32 hours (night-day-night). Overnight bogie change at Brest.
Not competitive with airlines.

possibly the costumer using it are not the usual airline passenger. Gauge change could be dealth with Talgo style. But it will most likely never happen even if relations between UK/EU and Russia were excellent.

 

[jamesontheroad]

There are only two RZD sleeper trains from Moscow to western Europe, each running once a week.
One runs to Paris (from Berlin via Frankfurt and Strasbourg), and the other to Nice (from Warsaw via Vienna, Milan and Genoa).
Traffic has been declining since the worsening relations with the west and frequency has been reduced.

Thanks for the info. I was aware of the declining numbers, but I'm of course optimistic that these things will be resolved one day. Our two countries are too closely invested in one another's economies, businesses and politics to assume it'll never recover.

Anyhoo... let's consider an extension of the Moscow - Berlin sleeper...

It would have to be class 92-hauled from Calais, and maybe run via Köln and Brussels (maybe not on HS lines in Belgium/France).
There would have to be a westbound immigration check somewhere (Brussels?).
Journey time would be about 32 hours (night-day-night). Overnight bogie change at Brest.
Not competitive with airlines.

True, not at all competitive, but remember that UK/Russia air routes are currently constrained by a treaty between the two countries. No more UK or Russian airlines can commence routes between the countries without an amendment to this, or without an incumbent airline giving up their current air rights.

Gauge change could be dealth with Talgo style.

The carriages used between Russia and France/Italy are already designed for this, and it is done efficiently twice a week for each train. My original query relates to LNW-GW Joint's point above... would it be possible to ever make this rolling stock compliant with the rather precise fire and safety regulations demanded by the tunnel.

 

[dutchflyer]

My experience of travelling on sleeper trains on Russian gauge is that the bunks were three high. These would fit through the Channel tunnel. I am assuming that they would fit HS1 but is there still a requirement that passenger trains through the tunnel have to fit British gauge? or has that been relaxed now?

No, they are in general 2 beds high, thus in the (what many call ''1st. class'') kupey, its 2+2=4 beds and in platskart (maybe called 2nd or 3d class- or ''rolling dorm'') same beds, but all open and also beds along the windows. The new Talgo's used on the Nice+Paris trains also have rather narrow coup''e s/cabins with 2+2 beds-very much like those of RENFE).
Lower bed can be turned up and then reveals a closed off bin for keeping luggage safely.
How many beds there are in says nothing about whether they are fit for the ch-unnel, thats the loading gauge. The sleepers from RZD that run into West-Europe thus all have the smaller gauge (compared to domestic ex CCCP). In the past when there were trains collecting through cars from many destinations, this could easily be seen.
Another obstacle is most likely the need (already at/from Mockba) for the car-attendants=provodniks, to make sure the UK-bound pax have all the right permits to enter that island in the North Sea. And of course the need, instigated by your HM Border patrol Immigration (or whatever they are called this year), to descend from their cosy sleepers, with all luggage, to pass the Calais checks. Well-then you might just as well step into a EuroStar for the short rest of trip, or?
In that same past they ran daily, via East Berlin, West Berlin and their then-allies of the old DDR-to West Germany then Nederland and ended at Hoek of Holland to connect to the ferry to Harwich.

 

[MarcVD]

The issue with border crossing between Russia and Belarus by people from western countries would need to be fixed first.

And, by the way, if I'm not mistaken, only the train Berlin Moscow uses Talgo rakes. The ones to Nice and Paris use conventional hauled stock.

 

[Bald Rick]

True, not at all competitive, but remember that UK/Russia air routes are currently constrained by a treaty between the two countries. No more UK or Russian airlines can commence routes between the countries without an amendment to this, or without an incumbent airline giving up their current air rights.

Similarly there would have to be a treaty between the UK and Russia to for a sleeper. And this would have to be a new treaty, rather than an extension of the existing one that the airlines have.


Nevertheless, my previous comments on other sleepers apply. To make such a service remotely economic it would have to charge phenomenal fares. There’s a reason why long distance Sleeper services across Europe have been reducing, (and why Serco are losing a stack of cash on the CS), and the circumstances aren’t changing.

 

[Adlington]

To make such a service remotely economic it would have to charge phenomenal fares.

Tickets from Moscow to Nice are from £320 (2nd class) to £670 (in a large VIP compartment). Not exactly cheap, and I see no reason why something similar wouldn't sell to London.